38. Holly MacKay Keeps Money in Perspective

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This week I speak to financial services entrepreneur Holly MacKay.

As founder and head honcho of communications agency Boring Money, Holly is on a mission to cut through the BS, jargon and complexity of money and personal finance.

Although I have known Holly for over 15 years, I didn't know her back story. 

From university at Cambridge to chalet maid in the alps, Holly mixed working, having fun and learning useful life skills. A trip to Australia taken on a whim ended up with a job in financial services. Homesickness brought Holly back to the UK, where she quickly landed a corporate executive role with a big financial services company.

Tiring of corporate politics and keen to go beyond her comfort zone led Holly to set up her first business, 'I had no idea I needed a separate business bank account!' Overseeing a conference just days after the birth of her child was all in a day's work for Holly, 'Although I wouldn't recommend it.'

An unsolicited telephone call while walking along the Thames one day led to the sale of her business for a life-changing sum, 'There was certainly a degree of validation about it.' observes Holly,

But Holly doesn't sugarcoat her life. The breakdown of her marriage and the challenges of balancing family, business and personal priorities, mean she has developed resilience, humility and empathy. A great episode which I hope you enjoy listening to as much as I enjoyed recording.

Episode Transcript

Jason Butler 0:08
Hello, and welcome to the Real Money Stories podcast. Real Money Stories is the only UK podcast which shares personal money stories of everyday people, so their insights can help you to be better with money.

My name is Jason Butler. And I invite you to join me as I have intimate money conversations with people from all walks of life. Whether you're just starting out on your money, journey or world on the track, there's bound to be something you can learn from the stories about taking more control of your money, so you worry less and enjoy life more.

Hello and thanks for joining us on another edition of Real Money Stories, the weekly podcast where I interview a range of people from a real diversity of backgrounds who share their money stories and their money journey. I'm Jason Butler, and I'm your host for the hour. I'm really pleased this week to be joined by someone who actually known, I couldn't believe it, I think nearly 20 years and who actually has gone on to do great things, and I'm talking here about the CEO and founder of Boring Money, they try and make things really interesting and not boring. Holly MacKay.

Holly MacKay 1:24
Hi, Jason. Hello. I'm reeling slightly about 20 years.

Jason Butler 1:30
Really? Well, it's nearly 20 years but I mean, you haven't aged at all. I've got loads of wrinkles but you seem to look exactly the same. So you must have gone through some sort of a I don't know y'all have some of what you're having.

Holly MacKay 1:40
I don't know Jason you haven't seen me after eight weeks of lockdown.

Jason Butler 1:47
Don't worry. You always look polished to me. Good. Holly. Thank you very much. I know you were super busy lady. You are everywhere. And I look for content when it comes to understanding money and that's why I was really excited to get you on the show. And just you know, what we're trying to do with real what we try to do with the Real Money Stories podcast is it's just to try and break this taboo about talking about money and the role it has in our life. So it doesn't, it doesn't control us and, and define us, right. So that's really what the mission is. And I know that you are not shy coming forward with your opinions. So let's, let's go back to to little, little Holly in the early years. Tell us about you know, what it was like growing up in the sort of role of money in the household.

Holly MacKay 2:32
Little Holly that was a long time ago. I think sort of growing up. My parents were, I guess it was a very sort of normal household in that. It certainly wasn't a fancy upbringing. My dad was a Scottish accountant, which will give you some sort of clues to start off with my mom actually ran her own business, which is, I guess for a woman growing up, I was in the 70s, you know, quite quite unusual. And so it was sort of quite a, I think an entrepreneurial sort of background really, I was thinking about it. I used to work for my mum, she ran a catering business. And so every Saturday she'd she'd have a wedding or a party or something like that. And we used to sit around and help her make all the things on trays to hand around. I was thinking, I mean, it used to be shredded cheese cubes and classy cherries on top of pineapple and all those things. So there was some, you know, from the age of, I think eight or nine, I have my Saturday job sort of helping make the food and hand it around. So I do remember sort of saving from quite an early age. getting very clearly the sort of concept that the more work I did, the more money I had to spend. Gosh showing my age in WH Smith on the latest single or whatever it might be. So I think, but also remember sort of really clear sort of don't borrow. So if you haven't got it, you can't have it.

Yeah, so I'd say sort of growing up I mean it from from an early age, I always had Saturday jobs. I have paper rounds. And I quite enjoyed that. Actually, I remember that sort of sense of if there's something I want i have to work for it and get it but I was quite money minded and I had a nationwide account, remember game to set it up and they gave me the little pocket book thing. And I opened my first account and use to sort of save up into there and somewhere stashed away. Jason, I've still got a copy of that book, which shows you know, pay six quid in some weeks take four pounds out of the other week. It was good, fun looking back.

Jason Butler 4:59
So you mention, You know, this idea that not boring an early age, you had the Saturday job and you're earning a bit of money and you're buying the odd single at the wh Smiths, you know, the record of the week. So how, how is your relationship with money developing at that stage? So how old would you be in a teenager?

Holly MacKay 5:19
well a bit young younger actually because it was my mom's business so I worked for her from the age of about eight really, and I think it was just a very straightforward relationship you know, in that it bought me nice things. If I didn't work I didn't get it.

And it was just I think there was something about the physicality of fax passbook I think they were called from nationwide where you pay in your, I don't know, whatever i'd earned the following the previous week, six quid or whatever it was. And just sort of seeing that book with that number there. It was a bit like a sort of a trial. But it makes me sound like a real hoarder, doesn't it but I kind of did enjoy kind of that feeling that I was sort of building a bit of money out but i'd also you know, go and spend it when when I felt like go hungry to embarrass myself now when she knew she can Stevens. Oh, that was my first ever album How sad. probably worth money now. Yeah. And I also used to buy houses and admission all that when Jackie Collins have published her latest sort of bodice Ripper, a very early age, I'd go and buy things like that as well. So, I mean, I definitely spent it too. But there was a real sort of, I always had paper rounds and I was working with my mom or when I was a wee bit older, my teens I had a job in the local pub, sort of helping the kitchen so I definitely liked earning money and I like, you know, buying things

Jason Butler 6:55
was sort of conversely, how was money spoken about in the home or wasn't it was it a taboo subject or Was he freely spoken about? What sort of conversations Did you? Can you remember?

Holly MacKay 7:05
I don't remember us talking about it, sort of overtly, but then Dad, you know, he was, I mean, by the time I was in my teens, he was the finance director of Clark shoes, and he'd been an accountant all his life. And so we did talk about it a wee bit. But it wasn't a conversation, Josiah, remember sort of we ever talked about, you know, overtly and I think like, like, many people still today, you know, I was taught that talking about money was vulgar, and it was rude and you didn't sort of ask about it too much. So it wasn't a particularly flash childhood. We certainly didn't splash the cash and go on big fancy holidays and drive, you know, fancy cars. It was it was a very sort of solid middle class sort of upbringing that saying, we didn't really talk about money that much, but there was a is sort of quiet approved and backdrop but but quite a sort of if you want money have to do jobs and help out and when you were growing up so your teenage years can be very formative as well as when you're even younger

Jason Butler 8:15
and how you develop money beliefs what were your peers doing with a with a from a wealthy backgrounds were they were they always having the latest this that and the other or are they in the same boat as you

Holly MacKay 8:28
largely the same boat I mean, I got a scholarship to my secondary school so there were some rich kids around and a lot of the kids at the school I went to were borders and and the people who are the flashiest was certainly the borders and some of them sort of would live overseas, but it wasn't one of the sort of the top notch schools so there certainly weren't people sort of with Jet Set lifestyles it didn't sort of hindsight looking backhaul feels sort of, you know, privileged for sure. But but kind of still quite, quite normal. So I certainly didn't sort of hang out. in in in sort of people's ritzy houses. There weren't sort of swimming pools all over the place or great big gala parties. It was very sort of sort of like normal, you know, upbringing where, you know, if I've wanted to go into town on Saturday night, I have to get on my bike and go in and then persuade my parents when I came back home that I've only been on the lime juice and so

Jason Butler 9:38
Okay, interesting. So, so, as you were growing up you it wasn't the people around you weren't living a more high octane life, you weren't aware of any big differences in wealth or consumption or spending?

Holly MacKay 9:51
No, I mean, that only really struck me. When I went to Oxford as as you might imagine, and I remember it really hit me then because Cuz God talk about suddenly, you know, realizing that your school you've been a big fish in a little pond and then I remember it so clearly sort of arriving at Oxford and feeling terrified by by so many things because I grew up in Somerset, right and had had this sort of fairly normal in inverted commas upbringing. And then it was observing the kids who had been to places like St. Paul's, or Eton or Harrow, and all those places, who obviously were very wealthy, who didn't have sort of summer jobs in the holidays, who had been on their years off to Thailand, etc, etc. And actually lost them lived in London and would all kind of know each other and there was this little clique that I was aware of I hadn't seen so I think for me, that was the first time But I came face to face with real affluence and wealth in a way that I just when I was growing up in Somerset I just didn't see that.

Jason Butler 11:12
So putting aside for a minute the the clique Enos or not being part of the gang or whatever it is that teenagers are trying to figure out, right. What, what in Fluence did that have on you in terms of the fact you knew they came from families that had more money? or certainly were using it more overtly? Did that have any impact on you

Holly MacKay 11:32
think the money bit, did so much. I mean, there were a few I mean, I'm talking about extremes that that would go off on their summer holidays on the yacht from the Greek islands, right. And that was very different. It so there's a bit of the old green eye about that. But But for me, it was more than sort of the social elements of it, and that sort of they were going to all the right clubs and who had all the fancy clothes and that stuff I didn't feel to do financially. Really, I think particularly envious of them. You know, but again, throughout uni there were there were enough people there. I don't want to make it sound like it was Brideshead Revisited. There are enough people there who, you know, didn't have enough money to come to me get by without work. And so for me, it wasn't that dissimilar in terms of reality. And I was a teenager and it was just a story of sort of jobs. I mean, I worked in nightclubs. I worked. My worst job was working for the local Jamaican restaurant and the resist terrifying grandma who used to strop around in the kitchen, kind of cutting up goats with a meat cleaver looking really sinister.

As the guy and all his mates would sort of drink red stripe as granny would walk around with a meat cleaver, that was a fun job.

Jason Butler 12:56
That was a uni was it? Well, yeah,

Holly MacKay 12:58
that was that was at uni, so it was some

in a more more of the same and I don't think at that point it was um I certainly didn't think about money very much I didn't have particularly much of it but a lot of my friends were in the same boat. So it's just the usual stuff you know, eating a lot of tuna pasture and drinking very pea wine and not going out that much. So I wouldn't say you know, I certainly was not someone that's we've had big ideas of saving or setting up money making enterprises or doing any of that when I was at uni. That didn't come to them too wrong.

Jason Butler 13:46
And you did. Did you have a clear idea of what you were gonna do? Or you just sort of took everyday as it came to just get through Oxford get a degree and see what happens

Holly MacKay 13:53
are not a clue. Not a clue. And it actually took me to my sort of, I think nearly 30 to work it out. And When I left uni, with a degree in modern languages, I mean, I had not Not a clue. I didn't have any vocation. And I went backpacking in AWS. And one thing led to another, I met a guy that means I stayed out. And I worked in TV for ages. And then that was when it was really hard and I had to make some decisions because I had quite a degree on paper. And lots of my friends were going into law and finance or sort of one of those well paid things. But I wanted to make Telly and I wanted to make documentaries. And so I started off, you know, as a runner in a production company. And I'd like to say RSA, I went on to a sort of glittering career, but I didn't because there was no money in Australian television production at all. Most of the TV they make over there is sport, about which I know very little So I sort of desert Jason I think for about five or six years making very little money working quite hard. And it was about that time, actually, when I started to get interested in the stock markets and, and I think when I look back, it was because at that stage so it was in my sort of mid 20s I was living in Australia was very remote from my family, very homesick, no sort of zoom, no FaceTime, you know, you either faxed people or you.

Jason Butler 15:38
Just in case people don't know what a fax machine is, is like a photocopier, like a photocopier that you send a piece of paper and it comes out as a piece of paper. The other end just in case because you've got people under the age of 35 or you

Holly MacKay 15:52
know, I can't believe I now need special sort of treatments so they

Jason Butler 15:58
don't Hey, To me a couple of weeks ago, right? So you've got to have this as well, you can cope with it tomorrow. So you're just be cleaning. So at this stage, you've been out in AWS for six years, following up with someone trying to do this TV, which was very marginal. By financially was it just like, paycheck to paycheck or as you build savings,

Holly MacKay 16:20
paycheck to paycheck, and of course, when you work into the night Telly, it's it's a waste. And so

you know, you you will work on it on a job on a film on a TV show, whatever it is a freelance or contract, and then when that runs out, you literally don't know where your next money's coming from. So I remember my low point because it but then I'd get temp jobs you see to get me through so I there's always been a sort of temp job. I could pick up $10 an hour answering the phone and some sort of estate agents office or doing whatever it was. But it was really hand mouth, no savings. And, and you know as following the dream, I guess, of making my documentaries but it became more and more clear that wasn't going to happen. And at the same time because of the homesickness, I used to phone home every week. And when I came to talk to my dad on the phone, you know, I think it's quite hard at distance when you're in your early 20s. to kind of know what to say to your dad. It was easier with my mom. And and the one thing that my dad and I could find talk about where we would start roar with laughter was when I started to dabble on the stock market. And I remember this one conversation so vividly, like dad had sort of had a flutter on some Uruguayan copper thing, and I bought some shares in some Filipino nickel thing and it'll Course come, I can't remember whose did worse than who's but it also gone wrong. And so that became the thing that we started to talk about and to build a relationship around. And then I suddenly realized there's this sort of moment, suddenly, when the stock markets got nothing to do with economics, and maths and logic and reason. It's all psychology and fear and greed and all these sort of really much more interesting things. And so it was really those sorts of early conversations with my dad, and that sort of first foray into the stock markets where I suddenly start to think do you know what? The stock markets are so much more exciting than TV and film was getting to parties at the time and I'd say that to people and I'd say I've just worked on a film with guy pairs. But that was really, really boring. I'm going to go and work in the stock markets because they're really Interesting and people would look at you like you had a screw loose.

Jason Butler 19:03
So the stock market is the reason that TV is missing. It's

Holly MacKay 19:11
been very good in TV, Jason because I think the reason I've had some success in the world of investing is because I'm a I'm a person of words and pictures. And I'm about the only person in the world of investing, who thinks words and pictures are superior things to numbers. And I wouldn't have, you know, been so isolated in the world of TV or fashion. There's a lot of people that are very good with words and pictures in those industry. So I think in a way, being a literature graduate, being someone that wanted to tell stories and make documentaries, you know, is what has helped me in my career in the unlikely career that is the world of investments and pensions. Simply because I'm different to most other people in it in terms of brain type and and the reasons I got into this space,

Jason Butler 20:11
definitely, I mean just interesting point there that's worth just exploring there. You You're what you thought was your calling, TV producing etc. Whether you still like it or you enjoy it or not is an issue but you pivoted you, you changed when you realize that that wasn't gonna work. And sometimes people get stuck down their cul de sac of their dream as it were, and spent their whole life trying to make it happen when when realized that it's not gonna happen, right.

Holly MacKay 20:37
I've always thought, I've never been frightened of change. And I've always seen sounds like a bit of a cliche, but I think uncertainty I see as exciting not not unsettling, because I'm also very comfortable with the idea that you can try something and whatsoever that's going to happen, right if it doesn't work, Just stop doing it and try something else. There's no great shame and in a way, that's why I moved out to Australia and lots of people were saying to me at the time, that's a massive life decision, Holly and I said, No, it's not, I'll go and if I don't like it, I'll just book a one way ticket home. It's, you know, it's no big shake. So yes, I sort of think, pivoting, not being afraid to say when something isn't working out, but I think in a way if you do what you love, and and for me that is telling stories, and explaining things and making the complex, simple, and, and that's what I'm still doing today. I'm just doing it in a slightly different space to the world of documentaries, but I still hope that I'm telling stories and making things simple. Just in the world of finance instead.

Jason Butler 22:02
So you just what made you decide to come back to the UK was that because you realized that the TV career wasn't gonna go anywhere?

Holly MacKay 22:10
I'm afraid it was a lot more sort of basic than that I sort of split up with the chat that had taken me out to Australia in the first place. And sort of couple that with the fact I was desperately desperately homesick. You know, I packed my bags and got on a plane within two weeks of splitting up with him. That was frightening. I remember that I was 30 years old. I landed at Heathrow Airport, r plus five in the morning. I had no possessions. I didn't have a house. I didn't really have many savings. My parents bless them came to pick me up at Heathrow Airport and drove me home. And I remember kind of waking up the next day go I'm such a loser. I'm with no depression. spectral parents because then cracking great from the portal, but as I'm in my parents house 30 years old, I don't have a job.

You know, I don't have a partner quite very few life savings each may well done me.

Jason Butler 23:16
So you're feeling a bit sorry for yourself at this stage, were you having a bit of a bit of a

Holly MacKay 23:21
bit of a reflect a bit of a bit of a wobble, but I just, I just look for a job, you know, and I, I kind of thought, Well, what do I know? What can I do? And again, it's why I sort of big believer that every time you know, it's that saying, isn't it when life gives you lemons make lemonade. It sounds a bit trite. But I thought well, what do I know about and I've been working on these things in Australia called investment platforms. It's just a sort of souped up way of saying a department store if you like an online department store for investments and I knew quite a lot about them. then lo and behold, no one in England knew anything about them, but they were the new thing here. So that presented all sorts of opportunities and and I looked for a job and then ended up you know, after a few sort of false starts working for what was then still called Abby. So to the same people, you have to translate faxes for now and there was some time there. And that was my last in inverted commas proper jobs and page job pa ye job. And I went to work for them for a few years before realizing I wasn't the sort of creature to work for a retail bank and setting up my own business.

Jason Butler 24:42
Okay, so that's interesting. So how did you manage to not black if I won't use that word, but how did you manage to give Vince Tabby national as they were then to you? Great material for those of you with 30 years old and the day before you told yourself you you were a loser because you were back but your mom and dad had nothing. How did you manage to convince them And then more importantly, how did you convince yourself to convince them? I probably

Holly MacKay 25:04
missed out on the bit of the chapter in in all so I'd spent three years in finance working for Merrill Lynch over there, clearing the leak there I'd started out in finance earning $10 an hour doing the most boring mundane thing imaginable and sort of worked my way up a wee bit. So when I went to rb, and it wasn't with an entirely blank CV, it was as an art scratch to it, but an arts graduate with about three or four years experience in finance, so it wasn't totally

Jason Butler 25:39
okay, so that that makes sense. So you've got a bit of experience sort of working, just hustling but you weren't doing glamorous work for Merrill Lynch, where you were doing everything and anything it was needed. And then you learn from that so enough that you didn't start at the top all the way down. You you sort of got in and did Didn't you start a sort of a more modest level by the way, Oh, God,

Holly MacKay 25:55
it was so boring. I started off in a sort of temporal in The accounting and tax group $10 an hour doing what's called unit pricing. And I won't bore your listeners with what unit pricing is, but it was head banging stuff, but I decided I wanted to work in finance, and I'm quite a stubborn creature. I decided that TV was not going to work for me for multiple reasons. They're very vocational about things in Australia. So if you want to work in finance, you have to have read economics at Monash University. And then I trimmed a lot going on I did modern languages and I did a thesis in medieval French was mad and basically went on your bike. So absolute start off doing this horrible, ghastly boring temp job. But I did it and yeah, work Work, work my way up the ladder and that felt soul destroying at the time that I learned my craft, I guess And I worked hard. And, you know, in part it was right place right time because I was in a particular area of growth and finance. And, but also it didn't happen overnight. And it was it was slow and it was hard. And it really was quite boring at times.

Jason Butler 27:19
So the big takeaway there for anyone listening is that you, you started in a modest role there. You grafted, who took your time, you took every opportunity to learn, and gradually you earn the respect and the knowledge and the experience that enabled you to put that on your CV when you come back to the UK. So you just you're investing in yourself, aren't you?

Holly MacKay 27:39
I think so. Jason, and also, you know, one thing that says, Every job I ever went for before setting up my own things. I was surrounded by people who were telling me why I wasn't qualified enough or I've never get it. I should probably wait a few more years. And I never listened. So I always and again, that's something I think I've always done is you just got to have a crack at stuff, I think. Because if you don't someone else will. So you may as well have a short and I think it comes back to us saying earlier, you know, why not? You've got nothing to lose. The worst that can happen is someone can say no, it's not not. You're not right for us, thank you. But if you don't try you won't ever get anywhere. So I was always quite

getting cocky but I was always quite bold and just having a go at stuff.

And, and, and I guess aiming high.

Jason Butler 28:43
So you did six years of heavy learning in corporate world, but what did what did you learn about yourself and particularly in relation to your sort of relationship with money and how you used it in that role? Because you'll get the salary, perks and stuff that we how we how is your your your money, journey? Developing,

Holly MacKay 29:01
I was saving for flat so for me that was really important because I'd come back from ours picked up by my parents, you know, stayed in their house, and I didn't want to keep renting and I, you know, I'm conscious when I talked today that it's a very different landscape today but back then it felt like a stretch, but it felt like an achievable goal pulling together a deposit that first flat. So, you know, in in those years I was I was scrimping with money and saving very hard and saving in a really single minded way for buying my first flat that became a sort of very important goal for me, and a sort of sign I guess of independence and also an acknowledgement I didn't ever want to find myself sort of washed up again. And sort of landing metaphorically back in England with with Pretty much a suitcase and not much else at the age of 30. That was quite quite a sort of tough wake up call. So definitely sort of for the first sort of years of working at that time at Abbey, I remember it. I mean, I just wanted to set money aside for a house. That was it.

Jason Butler 30:19
And what about what about socializing and friends? And how did you avoid the temptations which are only too apparent for many people, particularly when they're building their career or want to build connections and particularly your single How did you avoid the temptation just blow your money on good times?

Holly MacKay 30:33
I suppose with sort of fine climbing because quite a few of my friends were in the same boat. So we'd sort of have parties at each other's houses sort of we didn't go out ticularly much. There was a group of us I mean, really, social lemon got up to no good but you know, we, we'd sort of hang out at each other's homes and didn't sleep particularly good restaurants or bars. You know, we go clubs, maybe twice A month maybe So, you know, it wasn't all stay in. But I think it was just sort of I don't know this is part maybe it's part of the growing up, but I've never been particularly interested in I'm not a magpie. And I've never been particularly interested in flashy things. I don't spend a lot of money on clothes. I mean, I quite like clothes, but I'm quite happy and Topshop. You know, I don't go near netta portait or other brands and even struggling so they are. I do like nice bottles of wine though. I will every week. Drink a 20 pound bottle of champagne. Jason. That is that is one thing I won't say

Jason Butler 31:43
it's just what we call life's essentials. That's fair enough. So let's just be clear. So you are still enjoying connections and socializing with people but you're doing it on a kind of the scale that you could all not just could afford but wanted to afford. And you kind of spoke you had an unwritten agreement between you that that was what The zone that you're all in so so the point there is if you've, if you've got people around, you've got similar values, objectives and can find fun in a way that doesn't blow the budget, then you can still have fun, can't you and still achieve these other things?

Holly MacKay 32:14
things so in the world, these kind of, you know, people in the group that was slightly different and the kind of party people I'm really extravagant and out all the time, and we dip in and join them, you know, once a month, maybe twice a month, but there was definitely a cool bunch of us and it was sort of, in a way like being back at uni in that sense that you know, on Saturday night we'd say right, what are we going to get up to rather than kind of plan a big night out on the clubs but it was it was definitely a time of kind of saving. The other thing I did then in my 30s which is is one of the best things I think I've ever done, is because I was working in the financial space. I set up a DIY pension online. It was with fidelity, who back then were about the first sort of UK group to sort of offer this this sort of DIY For me it was it

Jason Butler 33:16
was available on the internet.

Holly MacKay 33:18
Yeah, yeah. Well, 90s karate must have been

Jason Butler 33:22
early Jesus.

Holly MacKay 33:23
Yeah. Well, they were one of the first DIY platforms in in the UK. And what possessed

Jason Butler 33:28
you? I mean, did you I know, you were you were knowledgeable. But were you Is it because you were more aware or because you've read something or you've done loads of research? What I mean, you were buying a flat right? That was surely the big thing that you had to deal with.

Holly MacKay 33:39
It was the big thing, but I think it was because I worked in Australia, where basically there are compulsory pensions. So I'd got very used to seeing a bit of my monthly savings, monthly earnings, you know, disappear off into this pension account. And I'd also got used to seeing that online and, and frankly seeing it grow and accumulate. And I missed that when I came back to the UK. And I was really conscious that that, that this thing I'd become very accustomed to wasn't there anymore. So I set that up and, and paid, you know, as little as I think I possibly could every month into it. But I did that and I set it up as a direct debit. And I was looking at it that that pension pot just the other day and it really does tell the story in a really powerful way. That time is your ally here. And for me, that's one of, you know, the most important things is just setting up even if it's with really really small amounts of money, just that direct debit, and just those rare The savings and the compounding that people like to buy home apart. I mean, it really is important. You can see the proof is in the pudding. The early contributions

Jason Butler 35:11
make the most return, don't they? 92 this thing I remember, some years ago, my wife said to us, she wanted us to start a family. And I said, Well, I gave all the reasons why we needed a bit more time to do this than ever. She said the lie to me, Jason, never the right time to start a family. Right. And he's absolutely right. Here's the point. The segue for that is that it's never the right time to start a pension either or long term savings. You know, you'll just never get round to it. Just start it with something and then increase it.

Holly MacKay 35:40
So that's a fantastic lesson. I think it is. And it's like, it's like hell for so many other analogies, isn't it as you've just got to buy the trainers, you know, you can and don't worry about this is the other thing. I think so many people don't start anything like that because they're worried they haven't gotten perfect answer. It doesn't have to be perfect. And you can start with you know, pound it's just it's getting started and

Jason Butler 36:10
again say he didn't he didn't he say something like it's best to be roughly right than precisely wrong.

Holly MacKay 36:16
Exactly.

Take a bit of money in the stock market. So

Jason Butler 36:21
I'm just I'm just catering conjured up an image in the 90s. It was dial up modems, and you had to be careful about how long you're online. So How on earth did you? How did you never go into the pension online in the 90s? I'm still still this is this is new information for me. I didn't even know it was possible.

Holly MacKay 36:37
Maybe it's not the moment I'm getting confused. I'm trying to think No, no, you're right. Because of course I came but I'm not that old. This is what it is just you put me off because you made me feel Oh, Marxism had to explain that. I came back from AWS. You're absolutely right. I came back. I remember the year of my head. 2003.

Jason Butler 36:56
Okay, now we're getting

Holly MacKay 36:57
somewhere between those we've sort of got confused. About 10 years now it was three I came back. That's when I started working at RB. And that must have been when I set up my pension with with fidelity so so you haven't gone mad, and it wasn't in the mid 90s.

Jason Butler 37:16
But just those visions of you know, the screen or freezing and Okay, she said this pitched up there. When did you realize that corporate world and a job wasn't viewed that you needed to do your own thing? What was the Epiphany or was a

Holly MacKay 37:30
gradual realization? Yeah, someone told me that when I was 18 I mean, my mom tells me every day rage says never like people telling you what to do. You're stubborn little beast. I think no. For me, what happened is I had a gut for and this is I think, looking back, I mean, retail banking was not for me, I think it's very unimaginative world. It's changed a lot. Actually since then, but it was a very machiko world, Santander had just acquired a B. And there were lots of political points scores, and it was not the best place to be. And I actually felt quite bullied. And I know when I go into it out of respect for the various people involved, but I had quite an unhappy time towards the end, where I was trying to do a job without, you know, without a nice environment around me all supportive here. Ah, well, I'm probably more than that, actually. But um, I just sort of reached the point where I'd had an absolute gut fall. And I just left and I left kind of not knowing what else I wanted to do, but knowing that I just couldn't take that particular situation anymore. And I am I just went to India for three months. I just went right. I'm off. I'm going. I've, I've always had this sort of love affair with India and I'm endlessly fascinated by by place. So I went there for three months. And actually cut a long story short, when I was there, I bought a magazine about funds in the Indian market. And tartar is one of the biggest brands in Australia. They make trucks, they make salt, they make steel. In fact, they make pretty much everything you can see involved in urban India. And I wrote to the guy that ran their asset management business because I was interested. I sent him an email from an internet cafe in a slum, introduce myself, and then the next thing I knew he'd email me back and we'll come to Mumbai and chat. And so I remember going to a department store in India, and perhaps trying to Find a suit that fitted me. I didn't have any suits with me. And they were all about a foot too short. And I found the best one I could and hopped on a train and went to see him and talked about how I thought people wanted access to Indian markets in London. And there weren't any decent Indian fund managers. And the next thing I knew, he'd said, well, will you represent us in London and help us to find a foot into that market and, and then that became my first client. And off the back of that certainty of some monthly revenue coming in, I set up my first business. So there you go. One thing led to another. I certainly didn't plan any of that. But

Jason Butler 40:43
that shows that you were proactive. You weren't. You didn't have a massive plan. It wasn't all kind of preordained. You thought What the hell, and actually it was the right your productivity, you happen to land at the right time and you get your first client. So that's an amazing story.

Holly MacKay 40:57
It was, I think, and it just goes you know, I'm such a fan. For now, and I sort of thing can I think of, or talk to my kids a bit young, so about what they might do. And you just have to take opportunities, and you have to do what you love. And you have to do what you're interested in. Because if I've not gone to India, and sat around writing out letters immediately for another, you know, I wasn't ready to plunge back into the corporate world. And in a way, it's because I went and did what I loved. And I didn't feel the need to have a lemon master plan worked out to the nth degree. And I think sometimes one of my favorite ever expressions is from the founders of LinkedIn. And he just said, Sometimes you've just got to leap off the cliff and work out how to build the plane on the way down, and I think he's so right.

Jason Butler 41:50
So you started the business with his first client, and that was a business consultancy, wasn't it? Is that is that right? Sort of?

Holly MacKay 41:56
Yeah, that's right. That's

Jason Butler 41:59
just Just a quick potted history of kind of did he go in a straight line just go berserk, or was it real hard grind for the first couple of

Holly MacKay 42:05
years? It certainly didn't go berserk. I mean, I found

a UK based fund manager who agreed to do a deal with Tata, which was nice and I picked up one or two more clients. And then really, for me, the big sort of change was around a conference. Oh my gosh, I don't know how I had the guts to do that. Never done one before ran a two day conference, massive venue in London. And a two week old baby at that point as well, which was in hindsight, possibly chaired this two day conference. And from then the sort of the platform which was my first business really kicked off because people wanted discussion. They wanted independent information they wanted to tell

Jason Butler 42:54
me let's just say you were you were pregnant at the time you started the business and you kicked off the first conference. you've ever done. They've never done a conference with a two week old baby.

Unknown Speaker 43:03
Yeah, yeah.

Holly MacKay 43:07
You wouldn't, you wouldn't. You should have heard my mother on the subject and the midwife. I remember her when she was trying to say when I was eight months pregnant sort of say, you know how I'd have to take it easy for the first month and not have visitors. And I said, Well, I'm chairing the two day conference. And I tell you what, it still makes me chuckle no one who came, of course, knows that I think it's the only financial services conference that's ever been sheduled and timetabled around a breastfeeding.

Jason Butler 43:40
However, you must have been incredibly driven and emotionally strong to do that. And I don't mean that to decry. female sex. I mean, having a child is a is a really draining thing is it? How did you get the energy together? You're just so focused and driven all lots of coffee.

Holly MacKay 43:57
I don't know. I also think when it's your first Just at two weeks, you're still running on adrenaline and all that I think the tiredness really kicked in about three or four months. Because of course with your first you haven't had this sort of sleep deprivation before the birth that that goes when you have a second so I'm, I'm in a way that was just ignorant and I wouldn't advocate that to any woman now and I think there's a lot of merit in in taking a break and being kind to yourself in those first few months which are so overwhelming and, and I, I think again, when you say I was very driven, I didn't really when I sort of set up this business, it will happen quite accidentally, in a way Jason because I just did what I liked. And I liked talking to people, I like bringing people together. I like writing. I like having these ideas. So I wasn't doing any of it. With with an intended outcome, and that's what I find actually quite annoying about the current sort of space of sort of entrepreneurs, I think a lot of the motivations are to be this cool founder figure or to get really rich or to do this or that. Whereas actually, I think the successful entrepreneurs are just people who do what they like with a passion and they do it really well. You know, there's a difference there. So I wasn't driven as in sort of sitting around thinking, here are the goals I must hit. I just did what I liked, and and it grew and probably grew a bit faster than I thought it would. And I was just sort of swept up in the whirlwind of it all.

Jason Butler 45:48
But also as a woman, you have a right as much as anyone else, to have a career to have a business to have your identity beyond being a mom and you shouldn't feel in any way guilty or you know, embarrassed or anything like that, you know, you have a right to both and I think probably those years gone back, it was still still quite unusual, isn't it to have an entrepreneurial fit you have that many female entrepreneurs around 1520 years ago, it was still quite, quite unusual, wasn't it?

Holly MacKay 46:17
I guess it was, but then I've never really spent a lot of time worrying about what what the norm is or what the status quo is. I mean, with with hindsight, I do regret

pushing myself quite as hard as I did. And it's never been anyone else. It's always been me pushing myself.

Because I think with the first six months of my first child, I did find that extremely difficult. And it took me a long time to realize that a child is a person as a human being is not somebody you To put into Microsoft Outlook control and, and you know gene afford, frankly if I had 10 minutes with that man put her in the stocks, I mean so I think there are times and places but I was I was enjoying what I was doing. And it was clearly bonkers and it was all a bit too much too soon. And but with my first business I mean it definitely I didn't think I was an entrepreneur. I didn't describe myself like that. And I certainly wasn't setting up a business to sell it. I was just doing what I like.

Jason Butler 47:38
So you're running this business you had the fat you'd fall with your savings that you'd worked harder happy to build. You had your first child what was there's always an interesting thing people who run their start their own business, this the fuzziness financially, particularly I want to focus on between the household budget and the household balance sheet and the business balance sheet and the business thing. You know, you know, my background, many businesses and stuff. And so I'm interested to know how you navigated that because some people forget that they are two separate things. So they get commingled, don't they, and that's when sometimes problems can happen.

Holly MacKay 48:16
I navigated it so badly. I'll tell you something. You can't have been that naive, Holly. I thought, right. I'll set up a business. So I thought I'll set up a company. What do I have to do? I didn't they upset a company. I went, got my web name. That's what's the most fun that sort of went on to Companies House and sort of set up as a limited company. And then and then I traded for whatever the first trading period is. And then I went to my accountant and I said, right here are my accounts. I've kept detailed Excel spreadsheets, of what's business expenditure, and I remember their faces. They looked him up. What do you mean? I hadn't even set up a separate business account Jason Didn't know. I know. But I mean, where's where's the where's the rulebook for setting up a bit? Yeah,

Jason Butler 49:05
I don't know,

Holly MacKay 49:06
I just used my personal bank account. And all the money had been paid in there. It's a disaster if you look back now, but I just didn't. I didn't know any different. And I'd kept a really meticulous Excel spreadsheet, kind of saying that's a business expense. And that's a personal expense. And my accountant just when he can't do it, I mean, you can't you can't have a business with a business bank account. Well, I didn't know. So that's how intertwined it all was. That the thing I would say about my first business was the you know, I wasn't manufacturing things. It was it was research. It was insight. It was writing reports.

Jason Butler 49:53
You didn't adopt it. You didn't even stop to buy it was just selling.

Holly MacKay 49:57
I didn't borrow any money. It wasn't last week. I didn't particularly need to make big capital investments. So you know, the profit margins are quite high and the investment was low so it wasn't like my second businesses it you know, it wasn't something that required significant capital sort of expenditure from so it mattered less that I kind of had same bank account for my personal stuff as my business stuff.

Jason Butler 50:30
And so you won't see your untangle that after the first year or so realize you have to separate things. But then, but then the problem always comes even in in in a business that was essentially sellings of, as you say, knowledge, time and stuff. Did you then start to hire people in or did you just use contractors? Did you employ anyone I mean, because that's always a that's always a, an interesting period is now the business

Holly MacKay 50:53
is now I definitely am pulling people in.

And so within two years I think from memory, I had a team of about four people, that I employed them gradually and incrementally and, you know, the revenues that were coming in were always higher than the, the outgoings and, and so it was a gradual process, but it felt like a very logical process. And so, you know, and definitely I wanted the knowledge sort of in inside the business. So I sort of grew it very slowly, very modestly. And but but definitely sort of hiring people in rather rather than going down the contract approach, but the overheads were very low. So my indirect costs really were quite low in that business.

Jason Butler 51:46
And what about your lifestyle would then was that still low cost or that that suddenly inflated because you owned a flat you were living in London when you got this business was, were you keeping that very low key or was that that gradually rising as your income was rising like that often does happen?

Holly MacKay 52:00
No, I mean, it was low key. Don't forget, I had a one year old. So I mean, I wasn't going out. Yeah, I mean, I probably dumped a fair bit of caching john lewis on the fourth floor or wherever the kiddie area is. No, again, I mean, I don't mean to sound like I'm some sort of Presbyterian, whatever. But like, I've spent, I've always spent money on nice holidays. I love travel. And I like going to war for me. It's sort of backpacking aliens or third world countries. I particularly love Southeast Asia. And, but I don't on terms of day to day stuff. You know, I'm not a big spender. And that went on right until, you know, I remember selling this first business we're talking about, and I did make money from that. And I remember someone asking me if I bought car when I sold the business, and I said yes. And they looked all excited and said, Well, what did you buy? I said, I bought my dad. So Miss Sonics trail, some pounds because it's brilliant. You can drive it around

and call or attract. You don't have to worry about it.

Jason Butler 53:21
But it's about priorities right? So So let me just I just want to explore that thing in the when you sold that business you You didn't actually start a business to sell it. But you did get sold is that because you didn't decide you did want to sell it or someone came knocking on your door.

Holly MacKay 53:35
Someone came? Well, they found me Jason and it's one of those life moments I will never forget. I was walking along the Thames River, going to an afternoon session, I was dealing with a client and it was three years I've tried to set the business up. And someone phoned me up and they said, you know, hi, blah blah blah. This is me. This is where I'm from and we wanted to you'd be interested in having a conversation about selling your business was really upfront like that. And I remember, you know, when if he could have seen me, I mean, my goal was absolutely wide open. And then he actually named an amount like so I was walking along, minding my own business, and he said, so let's just say we decided to buy right and let's just say I didn't know we gave you a million pounds. And let's just say, and you honestly just I remember you could have knocked me over with a feather hadn't occurred to me that anyone would want to buy my business again, I must sound incredibly sort of naive and stupid here but it wasn't why I've set it up wasn't what I was gunning for. I didn't spend all my weekends plotting valuations and multiples and exit strategies. And, and that phone call came and I was trying desperately to play cool and hard to Get and all those things. I put the phone down and I literally sat on the pavement on South Bank and just sort of freaked out. I mean it was it was a really weird experience and very exciting.

Jason Butler 55:15
But what did the What did that? Let's say it was just the he was just an opening shot right but but how did that make you feel as a person though because because we often in our network with our self worth don't we razzing through already that was your own shadow? How did that change your feelings about yourself?

Holly MacKay 55:34
Yeah, there is a validation there.

And I think I've

I think it was some sort of indication because, you know, I've taken a lot of avenues in life with, you know, quite badly paid roles or starting again, or sort of slugging away. And not always doing or taken the most trodden path. And you know, it did i do sort of remember it, it is like someone giving you some sort of public validation and sort of pat on the back and somebody saying, you know, we think you are successful ultimately and and worth something and I'd be lying to say that it didn't feel you know, hugely exciting and and and hugely rewarding because there's only so many times you can keep trying stuff and feeling like you're banging your head against a brick wall. And only so many knock backs you can take until I think you start to feel the need for some sort of external validation. I think that's a very human reaction. And actually one of the things I think that makes a successful business person or entrepreneur is just their ability to keep on going. Keep on going.

Jason Butler 57:12
Well, it's not a measure of how you do when it's all going right. It's a measure of how you do when things are a bit challenging, right. And you can choose your response. You can't choose the environment. Yeah. So well, that's fantastic. So you did then eventually sell the business you did to do eventually. And if looking back on that sell situation, because I always say to people, when you sell your first business, it's kind of like having your first child but just with money coming in as opposed to going out. So what did you learn about yourself when you finalize the deal? What did you learn what how to do? reflect on your situation, then if you can remember.

Holly MacKay 57:53
I mean, to be honest, I was knackered when it finally went through. I've done what's called a three year burn out. So it's like running a marathon, you know, you have to time that race, right? And you have to sort of build the business and sort of grow it and of course you're under pressure to do as well as you possibly can in that earn out period. So I think by the time the sort of final day comes along I was tired and then another we detail is actually I mean, talk about life is quite funny when you look back at it. The day literally the day I sold the business was also the day that I got my um, decree absolute through the post for my divorce. So it was like a closing of a chapter. Okay, the same day, can you believe it? Is this this business that had built up and sold and unfortunately, a marriage that had largely lasted over the same same timeframe, so That day, the first of July, whatever year it was, was a very momentous day for me. And so I felt, I mean, there was a lot going on, on on. On that day, it was very hard to feel triumphant. I think I'm all just felt. Absolutely. Well now, Jason and I, literally the next day, took off with the kids to then stay with a friend in Italy for a month because I was absolutely knackered

Jason Butler 59:30
just wanted to chill and relax. Yeah, so let me just let me just think about this a bit of speech situation and I understand when relationships you know, don't work out whatever. And this happens to lots of people and there's all sorts of emotions involved and a whole host of reasons but there's always that sense isn't there is a bittersweet thing you sell the business but you've had to say goodbye to that relationship. But you've still no one has to no one can take away those previous experiences or memories. Can they see you've always got those things they are not they are still part of you. Right. So regardless of the circumstance you find yourself in, and the money isn't going to solve any problems, but it's just a gives you options, right?

Holly MacKay 1:00:07
It gives you freedom, I think it gives you choice. And, you know, I've always been quite risk averse. And for me, especially with that sort of uncertainty, and that sort of relationship stakes, and having the money to build to pay off the house, and to stick something aside for the kids gave me huge peace of mind. And I think, in part, I'm very lucky, in part I've worked hard, but in part, I was very, very lucky to have that. And, and for me, it was very important to sort of take that money and pay off the house and put it into sort of accounts for the kids. Because then it gives me the freedom to go on and try other things. And I know I you know, I'm quite a resourceful person. So you know, my Second business today, if for whatever reason that doesn't work out? Yeah, I'll be fine. I'll go and find something else to do as I know, right? some articles

Jason Butler 1:01:09
or expenses here you because you've got no mortgage and stuff here. I just want to talk about that thing about the mortgage because I know what it was like when I paid my mortgage off. I remember there's a guy called Andy Hart, you know, who does loads of content and stuff. He's a fantastic guy, but he just could not understand why I want to have no mortgage. And I said to him, Andy, I said, Look, I said, For me, it was just it's not a mathematical thing. It's an emotional thing. Yeah, as I remember when my mom couldn't pay the rent, and I never want anyone to be knocking on my door, telling me you got to move out. I just wondered what your thoughts because you say you're risk adverse, but you're not really because you take loads of risks that you just call them they're just a different kind of risky. What you really said is you want some certainty of outgoings surely. So what was just the thing about paying off debt paying off a mortgage, you know, what was it for you?

Holly MacKay 1:01:59
I think it was Just knowing that there was a house and a roof over my head and my kids heads come what may? Because if I've got guards, then to me, nothing else matters. I'm resourceful. I'll always be able to find a job to bring in, you know, enough of the sort of current outgoings but I wanted to have that house Matt home and it is you're right. I didn't sit down and compare interest rates and do all of that. I just wanted to know that I have that security, and that that sort of a solid representation of security for the kids and me and, you know, I feel so genuinely lucky to have

Jason Butler 1:02:49
so this business, you're now borrowing money. That's how many years old is that?

Holly MacKay 1:02:53
Four,

Jason Butler 1:02:54
four. And do you want to just before we sort of wrap up Jonas, just just briefly tell us what we're It's all about what he does and what people can find out about that where they can go.

Holly MacKay 1:03:03
So I said, pouring money up just to help people that think about finance and feel baffled or feel like someone's talking to them and serbo-croat. So I wanted to build what I think of as the financial lovechild between TripAdvisor and which, so the which contributions are from us that the independent experts are the views on various financial providers financial products, the TripAdvisor bit is we have thousands of ratings from other investors from other customers. So people don't have to just take our word for it. And we're really trying to sort of help people who either don't have a clue about where to start, or who are invested might even be sort of pretty savvy about it, Jason, but sometimes you just want that validation to know that you're not doing something totally daft or there isn't a better alternatives out there.

Jason Butler 1:04:03
And I don't know, I love your you have a concept called tribes don't you, which is where you can get sort of a group, you can connect yourself and understand where you fit in kind of different groups of people bear in mind, we're all individual but but that helps people sort of just helps narrow down the sort of the communication options and choices that people have, isn't it?

Holly MacKay 1:04:23
Yeah. And I think actually, when it comes to money, we are all individuals and different, but we all have this about eight or nine moments in our lives or thing that happened where we think I have a real, I have a financial need. Now there is something that has happened to me, that means I need to find out about something. And so I think if we sort of group, the content that we have and the tips and the ideas for people at those life stages, it makes it less overwhelming because we don't feel them that we've got to become experts in every financial aspect of our life. Before we can make a decision, we can help. I think people just focus in on what's important to them at the time, whether it's saving for your first flat or coming up to retirement, or maybe you've just had a baby and need to get your house in order, whatever it might be. I think it's sort of making it manageable. And also, I think trying to write about it in a very sort of human way by using other people's stories and ideas. And people like you, you know, should really help bring that alive and make it feel human.

Jason Butler 1:05:37
Making money, you're your servant, not your masters. And that's the key thing. So, Holly, you've been very generous with your time. Appreciate you're a busy lady. Thank you very much before you go, do you want to just share one final parting thought to leave everyone on a massive Hi everyone in a massive I

Unknown Speaker 1:05:57
think it's just

Holly MacKay 1:06:00
I think it's the people don't let money sort of bamboozle you, it is just a tool.

When I think about sort of the stock markets, all the kind of gobbledygook that there is out there. I think it's just sort of being calm about it and breaking it down and get actually what people are talking about is not fundamentally that difficult. They're talking about whether you want to own a small slice of some of the world's biggest companies or biggest investments. And, and it's not as complicated as people make out. starting small, starting as early as you can, and just getting started. Is, is the most important thing. I think, Jason limited sounds so trite, doesn't it? But I think people agonize over perfection. Everyone's stressing Because they feel a bit stupid and they feel they don't understand it enough. I don't think we need to overcomplicate it so much.

It is a lot more simple than than than people may count and I think we do understand

money better than fund managers babble makes us feel that we do we understand Dragon's Den, you know, we'll watch the apprentice we understand the concept of buying into businesses and backing them. And I think we have to sort of learn to trust our instincts a bit more and not feel so put off by all the gobbledygook

Jason Butler 1:07:39
is great, great line to finish on simply great, boring money is the website Holly McKay. You've been an absolute star. Thank you very much for your time. We on behalf of the listeners, thank you for being on real money stories.

Holly MacKay 1:07:51
Thank you for having me.

Jason Butler 1:07:57
Thanks for listening to true money stories with me, Jason Butler. If you'd like what you hear, please do tell your friends. And more importantly, please rate us on your preferred podcast app, because it really does help us get the message out there. So until next time, good luck with your money journey.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai