83. Maria Nedeva Conquers Her Debt Demons
This week I speak to Maria Nedeva, business school professor and founder of The Money Principle.
Maria shares her extraordinary money story of how she was in £100,000 of debt and managed to pay it all off in only a few years.
Now she has dedicated herself to teaching people in financial trouble how to build sustainable wealth.
Links mentioned in the show:
Episode Transcript
Jason Butler 0:00
Hello, coming up in this episode, are you likely to fall prey to a financial scam? And how can you protect yourself?
I review a great new money documentary. And this week's interview is with a university professor who explains how she got rid of over 100,000 pounds of non mortgage debt in under three years. Hello, and welcome to the real money stories podcast. I'm Jason Butler. And I invite you to join me as I have intimate money conversations with people from all walks of life. Whether you're just starting out on your money journey, or well down the track, there's bound to be something you can learn from these stories about taking more control of your money, so you worry less and enjoy life more. Real Money stories is sponsored by Vanguard, bringing value to 30 million investors worldwide. Visit Vanguard investor dot code at UK for more details. And remember, the value of investments can go down as well as up and you may get back less than you invest in. Have you ever been the victim of a financial scam? Thankfully, I haven't. But lots of people have. Whether it's the text below asking you to pay excess postage or fraudsters calling you up posing as your bank. Financial scams are really big business. Now, UK finance estimates that bank transfer fraud alone costs victims in the UK 479 million pounds in 2020. Financial scams can happen to anyone, but a research papers found that older men who value wealth creation and have a higher risk propensity are more likely to fall victim. So retired x businessmen are particularly vulnerable, despite what you might think. Now, which magazine which is part of the consumers Association has got some great advice on how to spot a financial scam. And this is what they suggest that you ask yourself. Firstly, have you been contacted out of the blue? Have you been asked to share personal details? Are their contact details a bit vague? Are you being asked to keep it all secret? Is the author too good to be true? Are you being pressured to make a decision? And are there spelling and grammar mistakes? These are all telltale signs of a scam. Now, which has got a great new scam alert service and a link to enable you to sign up is in the show notes. And which will then alert you to new scams as they come out. And awareness is absolutely key here. And as my good friend Paul Lewis, the financial journalist who was actually my guest earlier this year, always says no one ever lost money hanging out on a cold call or deleting a spam text or email. There's a great new documentary series on Netflix called money explained, there are five episodes and each of them are only about 25 minutes long. They're very well written. They're engaging and very informative. Episode One is all about get rich quick schemes and why people fall for them. Now they cover as I say the five key get rich quick schemes. And one of the schemes that they cover in this episode is the How to courses. These are the How To Make Money in property, how to build a fortune, how to do day trading, whatever it is. And these courses, generally speaking, you'll have very little benefit for the buyer, but the main the person selling them a lot of money. Now social media is full of so called experts selling their knowledge. But quite frankly, most of it is total and utter crap. And you can find most of the knowledge that you need for free on the web, or by perhaps spending, you know, 20 or 30 pounds on a few good reputable books. There are also episodes on credit cards, the student loans, crisis gambling and why we do it and the challenge of saving for retirement. So that's money explained on Netflix well worth checking out. Now to this week's interview, Maria Mehta is professor of science and innovation dynamics and policy at Manchester University. So she's a pretty smart lady. But that didn't stop her and her husband racking up over 100,000 pounds in non mortgage debt. And she tells the story of how it happened and how she became debt free in a very short period of time, and changed her relationship with money forever. So I think you can enjoy this. Let's go over to Maria negativa.
Hello, Maria. Hello, Jason. And thanks for having me. No, that's all right. I do feel like I know you haven't read the book. You know, you've gone to bed with me every night this week. Speaking. Absolutely. And but I have loved reading your book. And it is all about your journey of really, and we'll get to that in a minute of going from 100,000 pounds in debt, to repaying that within about three years or so and how you turn your life around and while the journey is not finished, how you really turn yourself around to turn your back on debt and build wealth. Get options. So I was really excited for you to be on the show. So before we get into that, just tell us a little bit about kind of your your sort of beginnings, your upbringing and kind of your early life and how you ended up in the UK.
Maria Nedeva 5:14
Right. Um, this is the point of disclaimers. Strictly speaking, if I followed my life trajectory, I wouldn't be here talking to you about money. But I will probably be in Bulgaria and I will I kind of have reclaimed my great grandfather's farm. He was one of the largest farm owners in North Bulgaria A long time ago, or I'll be an academic in Bulgaria, but I would certainly be not here. So I have to say that this matters in several ways that I was raised in communist Bulgaria. The first one is that I don't remember having any awareness of money, or what it does until I was about six. And the reason is very simple. My grandfather still had land in North Bulgaria, and my parents sent me there between the ages of three and six. So I was raised on the farm. So you don't buy anything, right. So you want to chicken, your grandmother kills a chicken. Sorry, that wasn't probably very nice thing to hear. But that's why chickens come from, right. So I had absolutely no awareness of that. And then with my parents, they never discussed money in front of me. So I never kind of own my early recollections of money actually negative I remember my grandmother, shouting at my grandfather, because he lost a bit of money, because you see, he came from very wealthy background. So for him, money was never a problem. So he will kind of carry it in his pockets, and he takes his handkerchief and money goes out. So it's kind of, and that is a very interesting thing. But the second even more important point is that in Eastern Europe, during the communist regimes, it was very difficult to fall into a lot of debt. Because if you are a bit short, you borrow a bit from friends to survive, we can then return it, but you couldn't borrow 1000s and 1000s from banks. The second thing is investing was completely meaningless notion. Right? So that is where I'm saying that I am probably a bit of an impulse to but not because I don't know enough about that. But if we followed logically my background, I would have never reached that. And then in 1990, of course, I came to the University of Manchester on a shortish George Soros fellowship. And then it was kind of rude awakening, because I remember my first conversation with somebody about money. And the first thing they asked me, What are you going to buy? And I was shocked, because I came here to read in the library, right? Why would I buy stuff? And he said, Oh, you can buy a lot of stuff. That was somebody from the University of Sydney Electric Universe. And I said, but why would I want to do that? And second, I don't have that much money. And he said, Oh, we have credit. Look at this. This is all on credit. And for the first time I started thinking, I remember the exact moment in other words, when I started thinking and questioning money in much more serious way.
Jason Butler 8:29
Hmm. Now I'm interested you came to the UK with virtually no money, didn't you? So you didn't have a lot of dollars.
Maria Nedeva 8:37
Kind of Macklemore aegyo heart with thrift shop. Right? I really had $20 in my pocket. But I did have Sean's fellowship. So I had monthly income. I'll bet it was very, very modest because 400 pounds per month for everything in 1990. Wasn't that much money? Really? It kind of but but still no nothing. a suitcase of clothes. And
Jason Butler 9:06
and did you pursue a career once you graduated? What did you do? Did you pursue a career in academia?
Maria Nedeva 9:12
Oh, yes, I'm a I'm a business school professor. I've always done I've always I actually am sociologist and philosopher of science. That is what I do for my day job. I've done a lot of research. I got it sounds probably a bit big headed, but I am quite well known around the world. My research and probably be a good researcher actually helped me reflect, learn and write the book that you claim. You've been gone to bed with them last week. Because it's kind of it. It does help having this research awareness because you reflect more on stuff. So yes, so I get master's degrees. here as well, having finished one in Bulgaria, and then I've been in academe ever since.
Jason Butler 10:07
So we know you're super you, we know you're smart lady, and we know that you're well qualified. But I just want to explore before we get into the Epiphany, where you had that conversation with your husband, and you suddenly realized you had 100,000 pounds, now I'm interested in the journey from, from becoming an academic having qualified. And to that moment, I'm interested in how you navigated the changing culture, the change from nothing, or not much in terms of materialism, to almost a land of plenty, and how you ended up in that point, when you sat down with your husband, and you both suddenly realized that you were in a hole. So just just give us a quick overview of how that happened.
Maria Nedeva 10:44
Um, with me, it's very interesting, because I did witness people from Eastern Europe, especially Romania, and places like this way, it was really kind of tight, because Don't forget Bulgaria. I know, each Eastern European country kind of people from that kind of the different, but Bulgaria was very weird, because we've always been very culturally close to Greece. So we never kind of succumb to this, there is nothing on the market, there was nothing in the last year or so. But the values will not will never materialistic and I think it's not a recent thing. In Bulgaria, the the core values have always been about knowledge and education and social mobility through knowledge and education, and emancipation, generally, right. So here, I actually looked around, and if anything, the whole thing confused me. And I was thinking that the whole thing in supermarkets where you have 1020 brands of the same of butter that tastes the same is idiotic, right? So I will grab the first data, not even looking at the price. Now, that was my problem. Because I didn't again a month money comes money goes money in them, kind of doesn't matter. But I was there when a woman from Romania entered Asda in autumn 1990 and started crying. She was just standing there crying, because she's never seen so much food, so much stuff. So with me, consumerism and materialism never kind of took off. I'm very sorry about that. Everybody, politically, right. So it never took off. Right? with me. I've always been a very, very traditional academic. To the extent to which I've had enough, I never want to call. Right. So the next question, you probably will ask me, How did we get in so much debt? And because this is always associated with materialistic values. With us, it was a combination, though. Don't forget also my husband to singlish. So in fact, he was the more kind of, let's spend this, like do this doesn't matter whether it's on a credit card than me. I, when I married him, I had savings and he had debt. So I should have probably thought better above medicham. But people are right. Love is blind. Let's, let's face it. So, so So yes, so that's an It is very interesting, because I didn't I, I've always been much more interested in figuring out the economic relationships and how the whole thing works. Not with me, it's never the personal materialistic thing. But I'm probably exceptional in that, that is the sociologist and economist in them. And the death came basically in brief that that came from my husband consultancy A lot of it. Because I was recently telling somebody, there's a lot of research showing that small businesses tend to live it for far too long before they realize that they're in trouble. And that is what my husband's consultancy happened because my husband batteries is the decision. And he used to work for nuclear electric. And he was the guy who calculated the probability of nuclear reactors exploding. In 2010, seven, eight, this kind of businesses stopped letting work out because of the kind of big business knew what is coming with the banking conduct anomic crisis. So that's how it happened. A lot of it.
Jason Butler 14:37
So you mean your husband's business was foundering and not getting working, but you still were meeting living costs through credit is essentially what we're saying. Yeah, yeah. Because he didn't tell me. Okay, so let's, let's just be clear to everyone listening is that particularly men and I know it's not the case in every relationship, but men do over identify a lot of men with the role as a breadwinner. Even if they're in dual partnerships where they're both earning, he says a psychological thing is a primeval thing that many men identify with a breadwinner. And so therefore, they often find it difficult to be honest, if there's a failure because they feel that if there's financial failure, somehow they're a failure, and they're less of a man. I'm not saying that is the case in your house.
Maria Nedeva 15:17
But that takes a lot of that. Yeah, yeah. With us when because I had to explore this because for me, I was furious when finally I realized what's happening. But the thing is that I was probably more offended that he didn't tell me, because our contract, you see couples have different contracts. And our contract was always that we share everything. So my husband, for example, didn't have the childcare because he worked from home. So it wasn't so hard to go and get the children from school. Right. And I will be somewhere around the world in this time. But But the thing is that, and when we explored what happened, when we had to sort it out, his position was I was trying to protect you, because I knew that you will react emotionally, which takes us back to the early 20th century, kind of stereotypes about women and money. We don't want money invest in queer women investing with us, because they get emotional. Hetty green is another case she is honorary men, you know. So that is it is your right? It is a very male thing, the protector, the provider, the protector, the one who takes care.
Jason Butler 16:33
And I remember reading in your book, when you said when the big moment happened, and you sat down and suddenly realized that you had 100,000 pounds of debt. Your first day inclination was to blame your husband, right? That's the victim in you. But then you had a realization actually, you are party to this because you're happy to let him or rather you not ask the questions or deep dive or you were absent without leave it metaphorically speaking. And there's a lot in that isn't there? So we can blame the blame doesn't get us anywhere, we have to have a stewards inquiry. But we both have to take responsibility. Either we were asleep at the wheel, or the other person was trying, as you say, carry it all on their shoulders. So so let's just talk about that moment. Then when you suddenly knew both of you had that when the proverbial hit the fan, and you realized you had 100,000 pounds of debt, and that was non mortgage debt. Wasn't that yes, only consumer debt. So what sort of debt was that roughly, you just give a quick rundown what sort of thing credit cards, overdrafts loans,
Maria Nedeva 17:27
what credit cards and overdraft, we didn't have loans at the time. And I had only about couple of 1000 on my credit cards, which I was paying gradually kind of I made some money I paid off. Most of it was on my husband's credit cards. And this came exactly from his business not doing well. But he not telling me so we changed the way. And the other thing is it turned out later that we all spend a lot but a lot of it was waste. So it wasn't consumerism was doing kind of frivolous things. All frivolity was because of my absolute refusal to engage with money management, and offloading this to my husband. And it turns out, he's not very interested either. And it wasn't not. It was unfair of me to do that when you delegate it
Jason Butler 18:16
without assuming that he had the ability and the inclination and the time to do it. Right. Okay. So so that was a classic. We do that in business, don't we? Maria? We delegate things all the time to people who aren't competent or able to do it, but they take it because they're the least worst option?
Maria Nedeva 18:30
Yes, yes. My I remember kind of telling him at one point, look, I really can make a lot of money. And I do. But I'm not very interested. What happens to this money later. So how about I make the money and you decide what happens to it? And this is what got us in trouble. So that is why we always Oh, I always make a lot of money he does as well, but his business is kind of was a bit more dependent on others.
Jason Butler 18:59
So we had the big epiphany, you've there's been the fess up and it's almost like a form of financial infidelity, isn't it? You feel like it's it's almost worse than than someone having a physical affair with someone. It's kind of like you feel like that, as you say the Trust has been been dented a bit. So you realize it was 100,000 tell us what happened then what did you do next?
Maria Nedeva 19:19
Oh, gosh, I went for a run, run marathons at the time. So I remember going for this four hour run. And I was doing the thing I've seen people do at marathons. I remember running a very big heel at 17 miles. When I ran lochness Martin and there was a guy running next to him and he did 123 swear words 123 swear words. So that's how I run the next morning. But I remember that even during this run, when I achieve the state of flow, and I started thinking how do we get out of this? I was thinking about how to make more money to pay So, right? I never, because a lot of people go, Oh yes, my life is finished, I have to shrink it completely. I never, I combine the two things ultimately. But I never thought about shrinking my life beyond a certain point, I always thought, That's it, we have to make more money. And the next thing I did was I went to write an academic paper with a friend of mine, who happens to be an accountant as well. She used to be a tax inspector in her previous life. So I was going out, divorce him or leave him to the to the to my husband, bla, bla, bla, bla bla. And she didn't say anything. She just got up, open her fridge, and took out a pint of milk, and showed it to me and said, How much does this cost? And you know, Jason, it hits me that I had absolutely no idea. This pint of milk could have been anything between five pounds and five p, I had absolutely no idea. And when she saw my face, she said, That's what I'm talking about. That's why you have to look at what you do first, before blaming john all the time. And that was kind of I think this turned things around. And then my husband and I started working together completely together. So since then we've been completely open about money, weight goals, decisions about spending it since then, I've lost more money, because I've had several not wonderful investments, I have to say. But we discuss everything.
Jason Butler 21:29
That's a fascinating thing. So getting on the same page, both taking responsibility, right. Okay. Yeah. And realizing that your partnership is the answer to the root, first of all out of it. And secondly, staying out of it. Okay, so I'm really fascinating to know, tell us the story about so that was a really good thing. In fact, you should, you should read my latest blog, which is, which is out this week, which is the bucket in spades approach to wealth. And what I say is that sometimes you can't cut any more, you know, you've spread, if you've dealt with all the leaks of all the money that's being wasted or going out the wrong place. You know, it's a bit like a hose or a bucket. If you can't plug any more leaks, then you need a bigger shovel, right? Or you pick a financial shovel, right? And it sounds to me like you You did the two things, you you both dealt with the leaks as far as you could. But you also, were focusing on getting the bigger financial shovel earning your way out as well. But if you haven't fixed the leaks, all the earning in the world is just going to go through it right. So right so hello. Okay. Now I think from the book, it says you got out of that debt in about three years, didn't you? So how was your week? So did you just just physically for people listening? How did you do it? What sort of plan was it? Did you prioritize it? Did you use the snowball method? Did you have a deal with creditors Did you could have declared bankruptcy What happened?
Maria Nedeva 22:43
Not weirdly, what happened was we consolidate it. A lot of personal finance advice will be don't transfer credit card debt super long, because you're basically making unsecured debt trying to secure that. But you see this reduce the interest so much that we could really go big time for for paying off the debt. Because, you know, I, I didn't use the snowball method. What I did is I call it race to the middle because mathematically it was clear that until you get you've paid half of your debt off, you're paying much more interest in principal. So basically, what speeds up paying off debt is not the snowballing as such, it is getting to the point where you pay more principal than interest. Right. So, in some sense, we were lucky because I kind of got offered to do several academic consultancy international consultancy drops. So we managed to pay some chunks at the beginning. And every time you make an overpayment, of course, you get closer to this point where you pay more principal than interest. And that is how we did it. So when we had only the loan, I exhaled. Because I was thinking, Okay, this is going well. And then of course, we looked actually my husband being a statistician looked after we paid it, and our biggest largest one of payment to the loan was something like 606 6652 pounds or something. But that's not what matters. What mattered was the dollar smallest payment was four pounds and 52 Pence, which basically tells you what we did, we aren't as much as possible, spend as much as necessary, and the rest everything else we put on the death.
Jason Butler 24:51
Now that's a fascinating idea, the race to the middle. Now that's a really great point and it's not something you hear a lot about. The only reason that snowball is pushed, so She's for people who just cannot get out of debt. It's not the go to opportunity. But it is a, it's one opportunity that works for a lot of people who haven't got so much debt, but just can't move it. So the race to the middle is that point, when you starts paying much more of the capital off than you're costing you in interest, you consolidate it into a loan that really reduced the income, you cut your costs really low, and you charge everything, bonuses, add hot money, everything you could regulate into it. So that's great. So now one of the things that people struggle with is to really define what essential is right. So let's just assume you have cut things to the essential. Some people think it's a two is necessary, even when they're in their debt free journey. Right? Some people think deliveroo is an emergency, you know, and therefore they can take the money out their emergency fund. And when did you realize that you were really starting to make momentum? Was it halfway through? Was it after year? Was it when you got halfway? Or you know, after a couple of years? What When did you realize you were actually breaking the back of it and kept up? And how did you keep your motivation and confidence?
Maria Nedeva 26:02
Actually, with me, it wasn't the numbers that made me realize that I've crammed this does you see for me, thank all the debt was never destination. Many people make this mistake, they think of paying off their debt as the ultimate destination. For me, it was about building wealth, sustainable wealth, as I call it. So what I realized very early on is that there is a set of habits and practices that if masters, the money thing comes it is a bit like I'm a professor, not because I professor, no law, but because I learn fast, right? So you work out the conditions to get somewhere, right. And then one of the things I knew is that is my problem is with money. I never got out, I never felt comfortable. I've never got out of my confidence zone. So this thing, it's an anecdote on the internet, link to me, of course. But with me it was I realized that I've cracked the whole money thing. When I was standing at the bottom of a ski slope, asking people to sell me that passes. Because they went out skiing at seven o'clock and I was out gone skiing at 11. And a lot of people have finished but they had to buy day passes because they can't come. So we said basically, it's so it is morally not repugnant, but justified because we share the day pass. The only people who lose are the lift skilift companies, and it's midday robbery anyway. Well, they do. So that's what I was doing. But for me that was so uncomfortable that at the moment, I did it for two days in a row and I was successful in it. I thought that's it. I'm done. It was a Tim Ferriss moment kind of thing. You you lie down on the road to take a rest and people think you're incredibly weird, right? But you don't care. At the moment you reach this. Then after that, I was able to negotiate payments, for example, I was negotiate to, I was able to negotiate salary increase, I was able to talk to other people who are in debt, I was able, so it changes your perspective. So for me, that was the crux after that everything is like a kaleidoscope. Everything fell into place. How I kept my motivation, I we always always get treats. You have to keep human and I believe that our wants our luxurious is what makes us human. The Master is to decide what you really value. They're usually about no more than three things that define your personal humanity. And once I work this out, I actually thought, yep, that's important for us as a unit. And individually, we will always do that. But with this next we will think how we do them, we will never waste on these things anymore. Right? So if somebody thinks that deliver roll, rocks the boat, big time. Yes, you can have anything but you can't have everything is the kind of
Jason Butler 29:18
you can have something but not necessarily right now. So so the idea of say, a 10 or 15 pound delivery. If you've been 1000 pounds of debt that might be your little celebration, your little Thank you, you're well done. That's what you're saying is that you find what works for you. And BJ Fogg who knows a brilliant behavioral scientist, he says, you know, he's a brilliant on how habits and he says, I'm really small, keep the momentum, take really small steps but take lots of small celebrations along the way. So there seems to be find the thing that works for you. That kind of helps you feel that you're making progress and you've given yourself a little little cuddle a little pat on the back. Great, so
Maria Nedeva 29:56
sorry, Jason. In the book. You probably have also noticed the diary. framed the way in which I thought about my death. I stopped thinking about that. But I started thinking about negative wealth, which is very interesting mental shift, because after that every payment I made against the debt was wonderful because I was increasing my wealth.
Jason Butler 30:18
And that's point you made, I picked up that fact I picked that bit up two days ago in the book, and I've highlighted it, the negative wealth thing means that really, it's just a stepping stone to the bigger picture, as you said, to do the wealth paying off the debt wasn't the destination, and that was the downpayment. And secondly, you weren't overly associating your self image and your self worth with previous missteps and mistakes and failures, which is a growth mindset. So that was really, really powerful. So negative wealth, who loved that? It wasn't the end destination, and and you say, you were just, you were just sort of putting your down payment towards the future. So after you when you finally paid off the debt, how did you and your husband, what was it like I'm trying to, I'm trying to think about, like, when we paid our mortgage off my wife, and I, you know, I remember we were having dinner once I said, I paid the mortgage off She goes, have you? I said, Yeah, she said, Oh, anyway, can you pass the potatoes? It was it was like a non event. And yet this thing had been around my neck for 20 years since I was 30. I desperately wants to be financially dependent 50. And when I finally paid that mortgage off, it was almost like an anti climax. I'm wondering if that happened to you. Or if you did have a big party, or, you know, jump up and down. And what did you do?
Maria Nedeva 31:24
We had the, we paid off everything, the first week of February 2013. The previous December, I had done some work in Chile, and went to a vineyard. And I didn't realize but apparently Chile is the best place for Cabernet Sauvignon. And the vineyard where I went was the best place in Chile for Cabernet Sauvignon. So I bought a bottle of kezar oil, which, in the vineyard, I paid about 60 pounds for it in Chile here on the vineyard. So it's quite, it was quite expensive bottle of wine. And I brought it back from Chile. So we drank this bottle of wine when my husband about but it was very funny because my husband sent me the text done and dusted. I was lecturing to about 200 students. So my husband, my phone pings, and I said done and dusted and I'm going great. And then we had the bottle of wine. But you're right. If you don't snap out of seeing that as a destination, it's not climax, it's like achieving. It's like after achieving any big goal, you have to have the next big dream, right? So we already did. So I knew that I want to start investing because I've paid off all the debt. So that is when we opened our first ICER would not make right immediately after we paid the debt. And that is how we can five years, I went from 100,000 pounds debt 250,000 pounds new investments. Right?
Jason Butler 32:59
So it's and presumably when you finish paying the debt, this is what the one of the things is like someone's taking all the bricks out of your backpack, right? You've been running all I'm doing your marathon like you were right, but you've got a load of bricks, suddenly someone says, give us that Maria, I'll take it off your shoulders, and suddenly you are off like a rocket you've got suddenly you've got the brakes are off of your income, you suddenly when you got no payments, you've got money, haven't you that you can actually invest? So. So was that really like a catapult for you?
Maria Nedeva 33:28
Well, the building up initial capital to invest is still frustrating, Jason, because it still it never goes as fast as you want to go, particularly if you're slightly impatient. And let's face it, patience is not one of my virtues. I have many. But patience is not one of them. So it's still but but it does build quite quickly. You're just but but it's with any investing. I don't know whether you've come across this quote by Charlie Munger who said, he said that the big money is not in the buying or selling the big money's in the waiting week investing. So you always have to be patient with that. Right? And, and of course, we made mistakes at the beginning, because I always knew that the biggest returns are from directly investing in businesses. But then I thought I will invest in other people's businesses. And we made a couple of bad calls on this one, which Yes, it is very risky. But if one of them it's a bit like angel investing, if kind of you invest in a lot of companies and you lose most of them, but if one of them makes it big, the returns are so anyway,
Jason Butler 34:43
you've got to be I mean, I'm an angel investor in I've invested in seven businesses to gone bang five are doing quite well. But you've got to be able to afford to do that. And I did that from a position of no no debt coming in. I'm a very simple lifestyle. I don't need lots of money, but I love businesses. Right so for me, that's one of my hobbies. So you have there's nothing wrong with speculating is nothing wrong investing as an angel but you've got to be in the position to be able to do it so that you can look at your family in the face and you're not having to go out and work all hours godsend so. So tell me now you're
Maria Nedeva 35:12
with with with us, you're forgetting something probably because you've been doing this for some time. I think that building a sizable wad of cash, which I keep an easy access account that will take care of our expenses for about two years. It's a big kind of it's the next level of brick. Oh,
Jason Butler 35:32
yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Emergency probably losing weight in terms of, and you're not worried about the return or losing returns or losing your
Maria Nedeva 35:43
investments. And I know that I can pull back.
Jason Butler 35:45
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Right. There's a lot of comfort to be had to have a stash of cash that can fund your lifestyle for a given period of time. I totally agree. Now, Maria, obviously, on a busy lady, I know we've only got for a short period of time, I've really appreciated you spending some time. What do you want to sort of? What what are the thoughts and ideas? Would you want to share with the listeners before we park today? Because I know you've got tons of anecdotes and ideas, anything you want to leave us with? Before we finish?
Maria Nedeva 36:11
I actually I would like to mention several things first. A lot of people wonder how do they teach their children about money. And I'm not going to go into how it's through example. And through telling them, that's easy. But I will go on to what because in many cases, we teach our children the wrong things, we teach them how to save, I think we have to teach our children how to spend, it is a bit like eating, you can never avoid it. So you have to learn how to do it properly. And of course, I have kind of several throughout throats money throats by which I absorbed this where one comes from rapping. And it says, make money, don't let money make you. The other one says that is a state of mind as much as a state of being, you always can decide whether to be in debt or not. Right? It's a kind of mindset. Your bank manager is not your friend. Because that is the biggest business of any bank. It's not actually commercial investing, it is debt. So people have to be very careful with how they negotiate. Compound Interest is overrated, actually. Right? And you're nodding nicely, but let your listeners Think about it. And you are your best investment. The thing we mentioned before that you want, I can sleep easy, because we have secure cash, we can lose our investments. And the reason I sleep easy is because I know that I had the competences to rebuild it. Right? So the learning and the practicing. So there that's it.
Jason Butler 38:01
Yeah. I mean, you make it sound so easy. Maria, and I could listen to you all day long. But look, your book is an absolute must. And don't bet on read. I think it's how to pay off debt fast. Is that the full title? Yeah, isn't it? Yeah, he is such a it's an easy read. Very practical, you feel like you're with Maria, you know that she's sitting there telling you this. So you know, I've read 650 personal finance books, okay. And I've interviewed over 1400 people in my career, and I was an advisor for 25 years. And I'm telling you, what Maria will tell you in that book is worth, you know, as much if not all of the other books, because it's a story of hope. It's a story of how, and more importantly, it's a story of progress. And that's really what life is all about. And I'm so grateful that you managed to find time in your schedule to join me today on real money stories. And I hope that I'm going to watch your story with more interest as the future. And as I say, I hope everyone goes and buys your book. It's really really so it's a it's a major contribution to road safety, as I said, as a police commissioner once said in the 1970s adverts, so I think that basically, you've been an absolute Rockstar today. There's so much wisdom. If you've listened to this podcast or watch this on YouTube. Go back and listen to everything Maria says again. She's a rock star. Thanks for being with us, Maria. Thank you for having me. Thanks for listening to real money stories with me Jason Butler. If you like what you hear, please do tell your friends. And more importantly, please rate us on your preferred podcast app, because it really does help us get the message out there. So until next time, good luck with your money journey. Real Money stories is sponsored by Vanguard, bringing value to 30 million investors worldwide. Visit Vanguard investor.co.uk for more details the value of investment can go down as well as up and you may get back less than you invested
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