91. Cathi and Jo Shake Up The World Of Money
This week I speak to Cathi Harrison and Jo Campbell from Verve Group Financial Services.
We discuss entrepreneurialism, female roles in the finance sector, what it really takes to have your own business and how to keep your children grounded.
I also discuss the importance of having a spending system (you can download my version for free here) and why I have finally decided to switch my car to an electric vehicle.
Links mentioned:
Episode Transcript
Jason Butler 0:00
Hello. In this week's episode, I explain why I'm switching to a subscription based electric vehicle. We look at the most common mistake that people make with their money. And I speak to a business double act who are on a mission to shake up the world of financial services. Hello, and welcome to the real money stories podcast. I'm Jason Butler. And I invite you to join me as I have intimate money conversations with people from all walks of life. Whether you're just starting out on your money journey, or well down the track, there's bound to be something you can learn from these stories about taking more control of your money, so you worry less and enjoy life more. Real Money stories is sponsored by Vanguard bringing value to 30 million investors worldwide. Visit Vanguard investor.co.uk for more details. And remember, the value of investments can go down as well as up and you may get back less than you invested. But first, are you making this common money mistake? Now over the years, I've obviously seen and met lots of people, I've read lots of stuff about money, and I've been on my own wealth journey. And I find that often the new shiny stuff, the exciting stuff, that's speculation, the get rich quick schemes, and the new thing that's out crypto, whatever it is, gets a lot of attention. It gets people excited, particularly younger people. But the reality is, is that when you're thinking about your money, it's focusing on things that you can control, and that you have some influence over, which are probably going to move the dial most over the long run. And of course, I'm talking about the basics of controlling your spending. Now, you may have heard me say this many, many times, and other people have said it as well, it doesn't matter how much you earn. If you cannot control and direct the money you're earning and do the right things with it, then you will find it much harder to get ahead. And in fact, you may even go backwards. Now one of the problems people find I think we're not taught this at school is how to control our money. And there are lots of terms called no budgeting, etc. And I like to call it smart spending. If you've seen my smart spending system, you'll understand it's about three identities future you, essential you and fun you. But there's a specific aspect of smart spending. And I like calling it smart spending rather than budgeting because it sounds much more aspirational. But there's a particular aspect, which I just want to touch on, which I find is what undoes people when it comes to controlling their spending. And certainly, I've experienced it in the past. And if you can get a handle on this particular aspect that I'm going to explain now, then it just gonna make everything else easier in your life, you're gonna have less stress, you have more choice, you're gonna have to take more risks, you wouldn't be able to be more adaptable, much more resilient. And essentially, it's about how you handle irregular expenses. So these are either essential items that you need all their fun items that you want. But the point is that are not always monthly, you know, not coming along irregular amounts each month. So they can be fixed amounts that you're known, but they're not monthly, perhaps every quarter or once a year, or they can be variable. Again, not monthly, but you're not quite sure what they are. So give an example. An essential fixed expense will be your annual car tax, because you know what that is, and you know, it's coming on once a year, whereas a variable essential expenses, your annual car service and maintenance, because you never quite know. And I certainly know from one year to another, whether I need tires, or brake pads or whatever, there's always a variable amount. So you can make an allowance but you can never be absolutely sure. fun things which are fixed things like quarterly magazine subscriptions, I suppose you'd call it fun. I mean, I pay for which and that comes along every every quarter. I know what that is, but it's not monthly. And then variable would be things like the summer holiday, I can make an allowance, but I never quite know what Mrs. B is going to spend when it comes to the holiday and she sometimes it's 1000s sometimes it's hundreds and you just never know you can make an allowance, but you can never absolutely be sure.
So basically, the key thing is to make sure you've got a separate account to hold this, these irregular expenses in. I call that in my smart spending system, the smoothing account, some people call it sinking fund or a fighting fund. It's not the same as an emergency fund the emergency fund is for on allocated expenses. Okay. So by parking, the irregular fixed and variable fund and essential spending, which is not monthly, but by parking in the smoothing account, it's separated there, it's ready to be called on when you need it. Now, an emergency on the other hand is for either a sudden drop in income or an unexpected expense. So for instance, we have an emergency. It's your engine blowing up. I mean, I was unable to get to work. It's not routine car servicing, right? or normal wear and tear like tires. You got to make an allowance for that. It's things like when you're two is broken because you're in you know having to have a broken tooth fixed. Because you're in pain, it's it's not getting a tattoo that you decide to get on a whim, it's needing to hire a car to get to work. Because yours is in for repair, it's not staying out late and getting Uber home because you drink too much. It has a partner suddenly being made redundant, it's not valid to get the bonus that you're counting on mentally, you've already spent. And we know that cash is a poor long term investment. So you really only want to hold in your emergency fund that proportion of essential expenses that you think you're going to need. And as I say, normally three to six months, I hold 12 months, but that's just me, you could hold two years, it just depends on your circumstances. But the smoothing account, which I mentioned earlier, is the amount where you put monthly allocations for your income equal to either 1/10 if you want to be really cautious, or 1/12 of all your fixed and variable expenses that aren't monthly, and the emergency fund holds that desired multiple of essential living costs. So get that key skill, right, that approach doesn't mean you're gonna be perfect, you're gonna have you know, you're going to go off the wagon, sometimes I make mistakes, but you you're going to have more sense of control, it's easier mentally to cope with. So you can go to my website and download or read the blog on that. And that's called the simple money mistake you make every day. So jason-butler.com, if you want to read that I finally made the switch to an electric vehicle. I haven't taken delivery of it yet. But I've made the decision that we're gonna go for a Jaguar I pace, se. Why did I choose the Jaguar? Well, I just think it looks great. It drives incredibly, it's been around for two or three years now. So they've had a chance to iron out any little, any issues with the car. And it's just, it's just a good all round vehicle. And I like the idea of being not sucked into the Tesla world like everyone else's. I'm sure they're great cars, but just fancy that the Jaguar sort of suits us really, it's got a tailgate, we can get our dogs in the back, etc. So, yes, that car is nearly 70,000 pounds. And you know, you'll be saying God, Jason, you know, big depreciation cars were a loser's game. Yes, you're right. But I'm 52 years of age, and, you know, I'm debt free, and I've built wealth. So if I can't have it now, when can I and I've got a Mercedes E Class diesel estate, which has done very well is in very good condition. But, you know, I can probably sell that for 17 18,000. And I've decided to get the car not on higher purchase, or a car loan or anything. Cuz you know, that's anathema for me, I don't borrow money these days. But I've decided to do it on a monthly subscription. So let's just think about that monthly subscription. And why have I done that? Well, for the monthly subscription, I get the use of the car, but it's new or virtually new, every six months, they will refresh it and give me a new version. So I've got to worry about the tires and things wearing out because they're refreshing it always and give me a new one every six months. It's for maintenance and servicing, including, obviously rotax, anything is not much on an Eevee I don't think there's any rotex or an Eevee. And full, comprehensive insurance for me and my wife. So the reason I've gone through a subscription for an Eevee is, well, there's a number of reasons, but let me just sort of go through my thinking. Firstly, if you're going to go for an electric vehicle, particularly a premium brand, there has to be an issue isn't about you know, the battery will, you know, you know, will it wear out are they going to be issues with maintenance, resale values, etc. and new generation models are going to be coming out over the next two or three years. So so by subscribing for the car, I'm not only I'm just I'm just essentially renting it enables me to put the capital I've got sunk in my existing car into my investment portfolio or put it in my property portfolio or just make it using business, make it work for me.
And basically, I'm immunizing myself from all the risks of owning an electric vehicle, and all the ongoing associated costs. So I know the cost is the cost. And it works for me and it might work for you, if you have a trading business, I have a trading business with profits in it. And I if I draw those profits out, there's you know, the profits in the UK corporation tax on them, I'm going to pay 45% income tax on them National Insurance. So they're captive really. Whereas if the company pays the subscription, which it will be that is fully deductible for corporation tax purposes, there's a tiny benefit in kind charge of about six 700 pounds a year so you know, 50 quid a month for me, as opposed to taking dividends out and paying horrendous you know, 4540 odd percent. So the company is taking it out, but the beauty about the subscription is unlike a lease one I'm not stuck with the same car for two three years. And two, I can after the first three months I can give them 14 day notice and they can click the car. So we're not stuck in a long term obligated, you know commitment to paying a lease for two, three or four years. And you know, if I want to move abroad if I want to close my business If I decided I want to go and buy a clunker, if I just decided I don't want to drive anymore, you know, I've got all that flexibility. And we've seen with the Coronavirus situation, the ability to be able to turn your expenses off, or change them or reduce them is really, really important. And just because I built some wealth, and I don't have any debt and very low expenses, doesn't mean I don't have control. So for me, it's a way of me funding it through my business. But if you are an employee, you could also get it funded by your employer by doing salary sacrifice, which is where you give up a part of your salary could be a grand amount, whatever the figure is, and you obviously avoid employers, National Insurance employees, National Insurance, income tax, and so that can bring the cost down view considerably as well. So wherever you've got your own trading company, and profits that are in there, you'd always pay tax on or you're an employee, and you do it by a salary sacrifice. Electric Vehicles funded by employers, whether you own the employer, or you don't, is a very tax efficient way of basically funding and buying the car. But by using the subscription method, and I've gone through the pivotal division of jagua, there have been a section called pivotal who do all this, and they're one of the few companies that is making this available like this. And the beauty for me every three months, I've got a new car, if I want it, I've got 14 months to get out of, you know, the agreement whenever I want. And I've got no tail risk of the, you know, obligation of the vehicle. And I've compared that to the depreciation on my existing car, which obviously is a lot less money and older in diesel, and the cost of fuel, cost of insurance, cost of maintenance. And when I add it all up, the whole thing is going to cost me net, about 2000 pounds a year more than my current car. So when you take into account, you know, the depreciation or the cost of running my merch and effect, it will be worth nothing eventually, and probably no one will ever want it. By the time I get rid of it in three, four years time, if I keep it. It's costing me probably in cash terms about two grand a year to drive around in a 70 grand, beautiful high spec, you know, current generation Evie. So for me, it makes sense. And I've written a blog for you setting those all out so you can have a look, it may not be right for you clearly don't do this even a subscription model where you can get out of it quickly makes no sense. If you haven't got savings, if you haven't got stable income. If you've got other things that you need to spend your money on, like buying a house or upgrading your house or putting your kids through school or uni, you know, don't don't don't you know, I'm at this stage in my life where where I can have these little things because all my other things are out of the way. You know, I've educated my kids and you know, and got debts and stuff and I built wealth and I've got different things all over the place. Different things bring in income for me so so for me, it makes sense. But you know, this doesn't make sense whether you buy outright with cash, which some people do through their company or get their employer to do it or whether you do it through subscription. Just avoid doing it through leases, because I think the leases are old hat and higher purchase and personal contract plan that they make no sense at all. So there we go. That's what I'm doing. Go to my website and the blog is there for you Jason? hyphen butler.com, which explains to you should you go electric. Right. That's it. So that's the end of me talking for another episode. Let's go over to this week's interview. And this week, I speak to an amazing female double acting business, Kathy Harrison, and Joe Campbell of the group.
Hello, and thanks for joining me on another edition of real money stories. I have got a real treat for you. I've just got one guest. I've got two guests. In fact, these two guests, I like 10 guests. These are what we call a tour de force females who are making their way in the business world and not just the business world but the financial service as well which is stuffy, boring, male and stale. Right. Okay, so now I'm not talking about myself. I don't I don't count myself in the male style and power and all that stuff. But there we go. Got a nice suntan? No, of course I am talking about the one on it. Kathy Harrison and Joe Campbell. Hi, Kathy. Hi, Joe. Hi, how are you? Yeah, Rocky No, is that a big enough build up for you? Or you know, Is that too much expectation wouldn't be
Cathi Harrison 14:10
involved. And we actually went a little limb award last week for our podcast, what you should have said is the award winning podcast. I'm sorry, sorry. 20 people now.
Jason Butler 14:22
Oh, my God, I'm not worthy. I'm not worthy. To be fair. Interestingly, obviously, if you're watching this on YouTube, you can see that the goals have just come out from the yoga class, which they do in the morning. Okay, if you're not, if you're listening to this on the pod, they look amazing, even though they say they've got no makeup on. They seem to look younger than they did 10 years ago. So I don't know what they're doing. But basically, it's working. No, no, Joe and Joe, Joe and Kathy, Joe want to just tell the listeners just a very briefly who you are, what you're doing, where you've come from, and then we'll get back into some of the backstory.
Jo Campbell 14:54
And so Cathi and I have worked together for years and years and years and in financial services, which As you say, the mail stale and still genuine, it's getting better as more people do in your garage. Yeah, so my name is Jo Campbell. I know MLA. Still. Yeah, I worked in financial services for 15 years, and and have worked with Cathi for 15.
Jason Butler 15:28
longer, but feels like longer. Yeah, we've been friends for a long time Haven't we
Cathi Harrison 15:33
have Yeah, Jo and I started working together and advice for you. Yeah, literally 15 years ago. And then I started parasol, which is the power planning company 12 years ago. And after I'd done it for a year or two, Joe joined me and has been here ever since. And she now heads up the heart of parasols. So I can focus on stuff up there. And then a year and a bit ago, we launched our own podcast just because we like sitting and chatting nonsense. And drinking wine.
Jason Butler 16:00
podcast co was a podcast. That means podcast, great stuff. Now, let's just burn because it was very, very fast. The verb group is your holding company, just so everyone who doesn't know about this. And there are several other operating businesses that serve different parts of financial services. So if you're not in financial services, basically, these two ladies provide lots of different services that serve financial services, firms, big, small, etc. And that's no mean feat. And it's an interesting one, because if you would look at their website, go to a Verve Group and look at their website. It is predominantly women. Now there are there is space for men right there, they do employment, but there's a very high bar. But the point is very interesting, because in financial services, it does tend to be predominantly male. And if it is female, it tends to be predominantly kind of like, I can use back office or sort of more support roles. Whereas this is very much female, lead and female culture, whether you're a man or not. So that's great to see. And as a father of two daughters, I love to see female role models who are breaking, as I say, breaking the mold. So that now you both sound to me, like you're from, you're not from London, in the southeast, you're from somewhere up north. So tell us about kind of your upbringings and also your kind of experience of money and kind of the whole thing and how you ended up in financial services.
Cathi Harrison 17:18
Yeah, I think, upbringing wise, I think we're quite similar in a lot of ways, which is probably what works well on the podcast, because we talk a lot about that. And, yes, we're from Boston, the Northeast, and we both came from a working class background.
Jason Butler 17:35
Below that non working, working. Working Class, we do have big dreams. Some of you could aspire to Yeah.
Cathi Harrison 17:49
But yeah, we're both kind of had a similar background in that sense. I grew up on a council estate, I'm one of six. My mom's a single mom. So I'm saying when he was 22, is the understatement of everything. And and yeah, I think your background was very similar.
Jo Campbell 18:05
Yeah, from a little pitch village. At the time when you know, Marcus actually was everybody's best friend. And there was no money coming in anywhere. Again, single parent family. There was only one and a half of us. It was it was tight. It was it was something I always thought that I didn't want my children to have to go through the same kinds of struggles that we went through when we were and you know, and they haven't and they really appreciate it.
Cathi Harrison 18:37
mean the door was just filled in the cupboards.
Jo Campbell 18:42
Can't believe you're not buying me, we're kit third kit training top, what is going on with you are we
Unknown Speaker 18:51
we never felt the salt.
Cathi Harrison 18:55
But I think in terms of getting into finance, for me, I talk about this kind of this course I did a while and a few years back first are female entrepreneurs. And what came out of it unexpectedly was I assumed I'd fallen into finances everybody does. And but actually, once they kind of dug in a little bit deeper, it was very much that and that there was some subconscious element of me that wanted control of finance, because I'd have known as a child and wanted to make sure I had a different future for myself and for my own children. And so something drove me to find out this for that reason to kind of go well, here's something that's been out of my control, then born from an adult, I want it in mine. And it's the same for you. No, absolutely. I just fell into
Jo Campbell 19:33
it was literally looking for roles that allowed me to write and I thought writing reports would be at least a way to write things. And I always wanted to be a writer. I'm big into escapism. Do you want it to be done? Yeah. I really, really wanted to be on benefit transfers. It's bit like really is I got myself one of those him like bulletproof vest to do it. And to start something for the people that all this report is taken somehow. And sorry, you go off on tangents that should have been called the tangent podcast. Yeah, so I did genuinely just took a job that I thought allowed me to write would happen to be in finance. And but you never know, it might have been
Unknown Speaker 20:23
conscious to probably have something to say about it. Probably wants to say that I needed to play with my mom. He says, isn't it like you get stuck in the end? It's
Jason Butler 20:35
fair to say that you you both came from what we call a scarcity situation, there wasn't a lot going on. So for you, Kathy, wanting don't want to repeat that want to be in control? What's the best way of doing that become an intrapreneur? Change the world? Right? And then, Joe, you obviously not, it doesn't sound like quite as challenging but still challenging upbringing wasn't a lot. And for you, it just sounds to me like you obviously wanted to progress. But also you wanted to do something you enjoyed. And the writing was sort of one route. But it's interesting, because and we might we'll just touch on this is you both obviously, clearly are doing very well that your bV business and I know hasn't gone in a straight line. I know you've had some tricky times. It's you know, two steps back and one step forward. This is what people don't realize when they see success. Success didn't happen overnight. And it doesn't happen easy. But interestingly, you think you both have children, don't you? Now, is that right? You both have children? How do you avoid spoiling your children and taking away the hunger and the motivation you had to do well, when they haven't had to struggle? Because that's a similar situation with my upbringing. So I'm just interested to know how you how you how you navigate that challenge.
Cathi Harrison 21:42
And I think that's my my little boys only four. And so I haven't, it's absolutely something I'm mindful of. And, and I think as he gets older, there's all the tangible things you can do in terms of, you know, do something, you'll be rewarded for it, he doesn't get, he doesn't get a lot of kind of toys and things bought for him anyway. But then he also isn't kind of into that stuff either. Which is weird for a four year old, and something that I'm mindful of as he grows, but Joe's children are older. So I guess you've had to deal with a bit more practically. Yeah.
Jo Campbell 22:12
And I think for us, the there's a huge work ethic in our house, I work long hours, I enjoy it. And I I've always said to the kids, it's not about the money, it's about having a good life. So if your good life is you earn less, but you're in a job that you enjoy, then that's better. And so I in everything, that's kind of a work ethic, practically, I always tried to go for the 333 method, which is what it's called, but whenever they got birthday money, or they got, you know, pocket money, or you know, in savings, or try and tell them to always put it into thirds. So you've got your incentives with the get, you know, 90 quid is pretty easy math, and they'll get 30 quid they can spend on whatever they want, go out and buy a new PlayStation game. 13 pound is for your servings for something for next year, if you've got to have a big trip, we go on holiday. And then there's a 30 pound fee long term servings a day to try to instigate a little bit of charity in that one point. And so you know, maybe if you just give 10% to charity, but they try to indicate that their charity was working with tomorrow and part of the worst on teenagers at the time. And charity begins at home was a was a big discussion.
Cathi Harrison 23:30
And but it's true. I think that in your house, there is a strong work ethic. And obviously, there's something about its role model, isn't it? It's actually jaws boys have seen both parents work full time, like their whole lives. And I'm seeing given husband like absolutely just get up and go out and do your job. And her youngest is kind of just just finished GCSEs and
Jo Campbell 23:50
disease. And he went and decided to get a job at KFC. And he's finally got the hardware that work isn't just something where you turn up when they give you money. You have to actually graft for it. But you know, he's he's enjoying he's enjoying that gratification of I've actually earned this money and it doesn't matter how many times you tell me I have to keep some of the savings. It's my money and I burned it. Did it? Yeah, it isn't. And I was really, really proud of him to the fact that he was still doing his GCSEs he just said soon I'll start looking for a job now because soon I'm gonna have you know, three months off, it's nothing to do.
Jason Butler 24:26
So he's thinking he's thinking ahead. Yeah. Yeah. interesting to know. I'll be interested to know if any of you if you could share with with us a difficulty you had that related to money and how you overcame it and what you learned from it because it's nice to share those because, you know, particularly for people who are perhaps on the beginning of their money journey, or perhaps who are feeling like they can't get ahead, you know, some people feel demotivated, I'm just interested to share. We always like to share the cock ups as we call it and the catastrophes but also the success that you got from what you learn. Not that there will be many, I'm sure It's a short podcast.
Jo Campbell 25:04
Increasingly, Kathy and I, you know, completely independently tend to follow similar journeys. And we both bought a house just before the giant property crash in 2009. Yeah, yeah. Well, I bought mine 2007. Yeah. Yeah. And so we both ended up with a property that had negative equity, you know, when there was the time when you could get 100% mortgages and the property prices were inflated. And so I actually hadn't, I'd only bought the house. So I bought my first house. This is the north south divide is going to just make you think twice a year, but I bought my first house and it was around the late 2000s for 26,000. But it was the early 2000s for 26,000 pounds in my little village where I live now and then re mortgaged it to buy another property, it's a keep that in rented and remortgage it to the maximum 2% and then moved into a new house, I had two wild grudges, I hadn't yet rented that other one out, and then the housing bubble burst. And I was left with two houses in negative equity. And so it was, it was a shock. And I am not saying that it's impacted me, but I've never bought a house.
Cathi Harrison 26:20
Because we did this. So I eat mine was just, I did what's happening right now. And it's really timely. There's so many people in work. And young people are trying to get on the housing ladder. And they're going nuts, because the markets crazy. And they're paying over the odds, and they're putting down offers before they've even properly viewed. And you can't tell people to learn from your experiences. But where is it like literally, we did it, I did exactly the same in 2007. I was renting with a friend at the time and her and I were like this has gone crazy. If we don't buy now we'll never be able to get on the property ladder. So I bought this flat in the zoo. And literally two months later, it just started to go down. And to this day, it would still be negative equity as Joseph because it was 100% mortgages at the time I've actually gone down. And I've actually kept it as a rental property and managed to finally start to chip away at some of the capital so that it's no longer in that because of equity. But that's 14 years later. And so and we're literally just seeing the whole thing happening again now. So I think it's that if you're buying him because you think there's a ladder going up and you won't be able to get on it. So that's the wrong reason about it. If you're buying because it's a home and you're not planning on going anywhere, anytime soon, you can probably negotiate the housing bubble a bit better. Yeah, it's
Jo Campbell 27:31
absolutely it's just gone nuts, houses are selling within an hour. And they're all now take a peek. It's you know, a seller's market, the taken advantage of it in its offers over. And so for example, we're talking 15 years apart, and my little 26,000 pound house, and there's people buying similar sized houses for 250,000. And can't tell me that's not a bubble.
Jason Butler 27:55
It's interesting that you share those two stories, because I've done several videos in the last couple of months about you know what to think of if you're a first time buyer, the rent versus buy, how to buy in a hot market and all this and I think you're absolutely right. If you're buying we know over the 25 years, it makes sense to buy your own home, right, and then chip away at the mortgage because then your rent free. Whereas if you're renting when you get to retirement or you can't work, you're still paying rent, right? So we know that in the long run. The problem comes is if you buy in a hot market, and didn't something changes in your life, you start a family, you get divorced, you get married, or something changes, and there's a lot of people stuck in his flats with cladding and they can't move because it's others. It's that it's that it's that what happens if something changes in the next four to five years, while we're in what we call realignment, which will be what otherwise called a crash. So that's really great story now, I'm really interested to know how to friends run a business, and what you've learned from running a business and what that's taught you also about your relationship with money.
Cathi Harrison 28:52
Because just before we came on here, we were just like dedicated if I want to do with a business, we've got to go on to podcast.
Jo Campbell 29:00
Nothing. What people don't understand about business is it's not a job. And people think, Oh, well actually I'm sick of my job, I'm going to start my own business. It's not that it's an it's a complete lifestyle change it you know, it it completely encompasses, yeah, and for the better. I mean, my life is enriched from what I do with work. And, and I just think and it's true, the old adage about, you know, get a job you love and you'll never work a day in your life. But running your business it becomes your family. It was so protective wear so you know, it's like it's almost like a child to take notes. It's about time for the job
Cathi Harrison 29:45
with them, I guess what it's about it's about money dog Well, certainly for me. So because of kind of the way I was brought up I've always been a bit of a saver it was square realize that's kind of squirreled away and squared away and it's a protection thing and I can pair upon it. work in finance and write reports all day long about inflation eats away at your savings. And what for a long time I've just gone, I don't care what it is I want to know where my money is. And I don't want to spend it, I just need to I need a nest egg, I need to feel secure. And I think actually one of the things for me that's changed is, and something I chose always said, which is actually that whole concept of speculate to accumulate. So of my family, there's three boys and three girls, and my mom. And my mom. And the three boys are very much speculate to accumulate, but actually, they just speculate. Whereas the three girls are all servers and kind of squirrel and squirrel, and nothing working together. And having somebody that can bounce stuff off and look at the business. And it's not only me, who's kind of looking at it, and making these decisions have been a bit more, a bit more of a risk taker, I guess, and a bit more keen to invest or like reinvest back into the business all the time and take some chances to help grow it to the next stage. So I think it's not an overnight thing, as you said, you know, 12 years in the making for parasols. But I do think that's, that's kind of shaped what we do internally in the business, which is ultimately shaping the way I approach money myself.
Jason Butler 31:13
And it's interesting, isn't it? You know, obviously, I've interviewed over 1500 people in my career and gotten it, you know, it's a lot of people. And also, with all the research that's out there, we know that there is differences in how we think and feel and act about money based on gender. But it's not the you know, you can have a you can have a female who thinks more like a man and a man with money, you know, if you take those generalizations, but but there is tends to be a safety first attitude, more often with females, and there's more of a risk taking, I think, I know the answers are great with more men than not. So how and this issue that some women a bit like some women don't want to go and do weights in the gym, because they think it's all about boneheads and, you know, getting big, and it actually is not, it's actually very good. And my 20 year old daughter does weights and she's she's very strong, but she's not like, you know, a weightlifter, there's not a bodybuilder, but she just strength. It's the same with business. And I'm interested to know what your thoughts are and what you can do to encourage other women who are out there young girls who are thinking about all businesses, that that's not for me, or finance, that's not for me, I wonder what you might say to them.
Cathi Harrison 32:16
And I think those generalizations are generally rise. And actually we add them I had discussions recently, where it kind of works on a business plan for verb group over the coming five years. And I was talking to external people on it. And some of them are investors in other companies. And what I actually said to them is, I know that my projections are very conservative. And I know that they're conservative, because I'm female, I'm very consciously aware of it, and they roll man. And they were like, yes, like if you were a minute to put another zero on the end of that. And, but for me, I know that I'm consciously aware of it. I'd rather create a plan that I'm comfortable with, I'm comfortable leading my team with, I'm comfortable, if we ever done went down the route of investment. I'd be very honest with investors, I know that absolutely, we can achieve this and we probably will go above it. But I'd rather go above something, then shoot for the you know, we'll just poke a finger out there and kind of over egg it. And I think whether you're thinking about starting your own business, I think for me, that's key. It's not whether you're male or female are overconfident or very cautious. It's that you do what feels right for you. And I could listen to business experts and stick a zero on the end. But I wouldn't feel right with it. I wouldn't feel comfortable and I wouldn't want to be challenged on it. Because, you know, I wouldn't, it wouldn't have the substance. And I think that's what's key. I think it's you know, it doesn't have to be a big scary world. And parasites are 12 years old, because for a long time, the first 10 years of the group, we've grown it very naturally, organically. Day by day, bit by bit. We've never gone beyond anything that we needed. We've got personalized with children careers, and we've done that. Now after all of this time, we're moving into a different phase, we're ready to be a bit more punchy, but because we're ready for it. And I think that's the thing if somebody is looking at finance or looking at business and feeling a bit daunted you don't have to go outside your comfort zone, you can absolutely step into it and just take it day by day.
Jo Campbell 34:09
I think as well as a lot of misconceptions in finance that there isn't, there isn't roles for women, just because it isn't as diverse as we want it to be is changing. And there is not a role that you can't do that you can't retrained into we hear when we work. In general, we hire for personality we hire for the people, we've got a really good core team and we can train everything else. Finance is just the same as any other subject anyone can do. It you know, it's a subject that you learn. What you need is the drive and the passion and what we're looking for in financial services and involve as a smaller part of that is is exactly that is just the disruptors. We want people to change you know, we want people to change the world for financial services in the same way that I used to want to be Warby Parker. We want to change the world and We really do need those people who so if you've got a passion for actually for change or for disruption or for making a real difference, then there is certainly roles for people like, finance.
Jason Butler 35:14
It's interesting because yeah, financial planning is you can actually change people's lives, right? When you actually you can show them what's possible, you can show them the steps. And one of the things I've always been fascinated by when I ran my own firm was that actually, the, the client facing role of the person has to help the person bridge between what they want, and what's possible, you know, the number crunching that's actually well suited to people with good listening skills, who have natural empathy and high EQ. And that's tends to be women have a natural advantage? Not all women, a lot of women have a natural advantage here. And I can never understand why there aren't more women actually, in that front of house role. Because I certainly know when we've taken advice, my wife and I, we've tended to we tended to warm together towards a woman more than we would a man. And that's strange, isn't it? But I live with women, right? So I suppose I'm naturally you know, I understand what's going on. But that's an interesting one. So that's, that's that's thing there. So I just interested to know what your thoughts are when it comes to money and relationships. Now, obviously, we don't have to go into lots of detail about your own situation. But what you think the kind of what you've learned about how to avoid blow ups, difficult agreements, or more importantly, keep your own agency because you mentioned Kathy, you know, your big thing when you were young was to have control agency's sense of your own mastery, own destiny. But there is a there is definitely a lot of problems around money, tension, conflict and relationships isn't. I just wanted what your thoughts or perspectives are from what you've learned over the years.
Cathi Harrison 36:41
I mean, well, I'm I'm twice divorced essence of my way of keeping me on agency is to just get divorced.
Jason Butler 36:51
pair of shoes. Yeah, no, I don't.
Jo Campbell 36:54
I'm Unfortunately not. And so a little bit of background about me was that I got pregnant really early. And really, you always get pregnant the beginning. And I was 18. my now husband at the time, he was an apprentice and earning 60 pound a week. And bearing in mind, our rent was 70 pound a week, and I had a little administration job earning maybe 9000 pounds a year. So the first few years was to say it was a struggle would be, you know, really underplaying it. So we were 218 year old kids trying to raise a kid in a rented house with Not a penny between us. And just the The only thing that got us through was the pure determination that everybody said we would fail. that got us through another, you know, 22. And so I think having absolutely nothing meant that when we had something, we had something, and it was, you know, every single it's never changed, to be honest, yes. And every single penny we've had goes back into the house or back into the children. And again, it's a reinvestment don't want them to have to worry, I don't want them to have to, if one of them turned up with a girl pregnant, that they would have to struggle in property that they couldn't afford, like I will be able to help them out, we'll be able to help them out with childcare and things. Like just, it's really important to me, it's a reinvestment into, into them. So I think the way that we cope now, we, we didn't argue about it, there was no point. We're very laid back. And there's no point in arguing about it, because we didn't have it. It was you know, there's no point. And although we have had both stops over the years, you know, beverages have opened ups and downs, and I feel like he's an over spender. He feels like I'm holding the purse strings too tightly, like pocket money. Now we get to pocket money to find so now, he was a spender. should have told me this sooner. So. So we had a joint account, everything was spare, you know, there was a long time here and a lot more money than me, but I spent a lot less than him. And so everything was just kind of shared the joint account, but then he was spending a lot a lot of money on things that I felt wasn't really, you know, important. And so I decided we would split the bank accounts to be one for bills and then there will be personal accounts and he gets an allowance everyone for what is allowed to spend on personal things and everything else. I cover the bills and I cover all of the anything we do socially and he has his own little pocket money that you can just do with what he wants the physical body. He does, he prefers it. He absolutely prefers
Jason Butler 39:45
what you've said there. What you've what you've outlined there is that couples are different right? But you know, and we know that relationships do end in divorce for lots of different reasons, but money can often be either the cause all of the symptom, right? But this idea We're all having your fun pop. So Jane and I, we will share the story because you know, my wife, Jane and I, she has a pot for fun, I have a lot for fun. I'm always using mine, she's always got loads left in hers, I always ask for strategic transfer, she says clear off. But the point here is that if she wants to go and have the Tony and guy haircut, or she wants to go and buy another pair of shoes, or whatever it is, that's her business. It's not down to me, because it's coming out of her pot. And this idea of not judging each other, isn't it? And, and not defining your self worth based on how much you're earning how much you're spending? And that's the issue because you're both successful women. Right. So, Kathy, you know, there's a lot of women I know, who are in their late 30s, early 40s, who are very successful financially, but they there's quite a lot of men who seem to be intimidated by that. And I don't know why that is. Is that is that is that because perhaps there's still this this identity thing about the man is the breadwinner, or is that changing? I don't know, I'm a bit out of touch with this thing. So I mean, I
Cathi Harrison 40:56
guess Firstly, just with the fun parts, as you describe them, when when I was in a relationship, or when I was married, I actually always approached it the reverse way, I was quite happy for both partners to keep their own stuff individually keep their own income. And actually what you had is a drunk bit in the middle, which is let's put extra money into this, this shed pour. Some did not inform you, the house will raise the child and all of that is actually everything in addition to that is just your own anywhere. And I think for me, comes back to this whole control element of it more than happy to put my equal Chairman to something but actually whatever happens beyond that, that's mine regardless, and rather than putting in the middle and and covering up from parts are just saying,
Jason Butler 41:38
Yeah, that's a good way.
Cathi Harrison 41:40
The same thing. Yeah, but it's Yeah, and it does make it easier to divide things when you get divorced.
Jason Butler 41:50
And just on that, just on that point, Kathy, that people do get devotion, you know, times in, you know, times in Kane, who's a brilliant financial planner in the divorce. So just if you're listening to this, and you are, your relationship is coming to an end, often the finances can either be the kind of the battering ram or the sticking point, just any thoughts there Kathy on how people kind of think about approaching that if they don't have to go into lots of detail, but just some pointers for people who might be thinking who would be worried about leaving a relationship because perhaps financially
Cathi Harrison 42:18
fifth job was thinking of leaving a husband. And I, I don't know, I guess with both of my marriages, I went into the relationship very much very independent and kept it independent the whole way through. And for me, in terms of finances, The divorce was relatively straightforward, because it was always a clean break. So we've put this money into this part, we've bought house and we've raised a child. And so that's the bit that needs separating, which is fine, we'll sell the house muggle 5050. And we always kept our own things separate anywhere, compared to obviously jaws in a different situation, she's built a bike for the husband, since she was 18. Everything's there in the middle that I can imagine it'd be much, much trickier for people to extricate themselves out of it. That said, I actually was discussing this with a friend the other day and said, anything like that, ultimately is admin might be tricky admin, but it's admin. The hard part is making that decision. Once you actually make a choice, that is, you know, life changing, leaving a partner. That's literally the heart but everything else that comes up for you, you'll find a way through, it's not pleasant. It's not easy. It's not the hard bet. So if you're feeling daunted by that, just know that that's ultimately the implementation. It's making that decision at the outset. And especially when the children involved, you know, it's not an easy decision.
Jo Campbell 43:34
I do think it's amazing coming from Kathy, because she's terrible at life. I've been. Absolutely. And I think so many people and we've heard of an uptick in it recently because of the lockdown and things of people in really bad situations who feel like they can't leave a tough situation because of finances. They think they're Reliant. You know, I would always suggest people go and speak to Citizens Advice are there is there is normally in the world that can make you say, in a bad situation, there is always ways to fix it if people need advice, moss, on you know, the kind of output financial agreement in place or things that you can do were open to any kind of questions like that. I just hate the thought of people staying because of money
Jason Butler 44:18
suffering in silence. Yeah.
Cathi Harrison 44:20
It was a bit of a grim analogy why actually said to the guy I was talking to you about it, because essentially just feel trapped and unsaid like you're not and that's the problem you do psychologically feel trapped. And I'd say then, unless Josef fritzl is literally locked in a basement and thrown away the key you're not trapped, I know. And he said, you know, you don't get enough. It's all analogies.
Jason Butler 44:40
Yeah.
Cathi Harrison 44:42
But it is that you feel physically trapped. But if you can step outside of yourself, you realize that you're not what feels trapping at all. hurdles that can easily be overcome or can be overcome. And you have to make the decision for the right reasons not because of the the difficulty in implementing it.
Jo Campbell 45:01
There's been an increase of people in debt as well, because of the pandemic and everything else that's gone on. But what we've seen on the flip side of that is, there's been a lot more things coming tonight of how you can help people in debt. And I think a lot of people don't leave because it's not just mortgages, it's other debts. And, and there's, you know, so many facets that you can kind of get into there. But there's just so much more help than there isn't I don't think it's advertised while in financial services gets a bad rap in the media. You know, if something goes wrong, everybody hears about it. But sometimes there's some really good initiatives to do with the mental health around money around, you know, help with debt. And there's so much to do, and I don't think it gets the, you know, the reputation that it deserves, sometimes
Jason Butler 45:48
I agree. And that's a very good point, don't suffer inside. And just because it's difficult, don't put it off, and he will find a way through and don't let money be the excuse. So that's great. I'm appreciate you, you're busy. Ladies, before I let you go, I just thought we'd have a quick roundup of kind of, I don't know your top, top financial tips for people. Just a quick night yada no to three things that you think you know, that really struck with you that you've learned that you wish you'd known when you were 18.
Cathi Harrison 46:13
And definitely on the housing front, I think can dunk off 100% mortgage. And understand actually something with my mortgage advisor told me beforehand, and was a really good tip to actually extend the mortgage term as long as you can, so that you necessary payments are lower, but then overpay each month. But it just gives you that kind of flexibility, if you need it rather than going for a shorter term where your higher payments are absolutely essential. But still based on the premise of having put a deposit down and being on repayment, you've got it as you said, ultimately, you'll get to retirement and hopefully not have to big expenditure keep a roof over your head.
Jo Campbell 46:48
And mine will be softer on just in that. If you forget that money isn't just money. It's not a tangible asset. It's an emotional feeling and help people deal with money can often be linked like Kathy's talked earlier about subconsciously the way she's going to finance. Don't beat yourself up, if you made a bad decision with finance, you've made it because of the place you were at at the time. And you made it because it was the right choice at the time. There's nothing that's unfixable. So, you know, if you've made a bad decision and finance move on, there's ways to fix it
Cathi Harrison 47:21
here. And I know it's easy to say, Well, if you you know if you're kind of sat there and you're overwhelmed, and you might think oh, it's easy for them to say but like it is just one a and I think they're going sometimes they give all of this went tomorrow I've literally the whole finance came crashing down, and I had to move back into the little rental flat with my child, it'd be absolutely fine. It gets you know, you can, it can feel so overwhelming in your life. But if you just went back to the absolute basics, you'd be fine. So I think if you've removed that mental barrier, then you probably get quite a lot of freedom from it instead of striving for for more and more.
Jason Butler 47:54
Absolutely, what's the worst that can be by you? Well, if you're if you're ambitious person and you're looking to get into financial services, or increase your quick checkout and growth group, they are a fantastic group of people. They've even got video about their office party and their celebrations. It's brilliant. I watch all their stuff, you know, great people that Kathy Jo rockstars I wish you all the very best with what you're doing. You're a breath of fresh air. And thank you for giving up some of your valuable time. And hopefully yoga will be even better tomorrow than it was today. But no thank you for your time. Really appreciate it. Thanks, Jess. And also if you're one of the guys that Jason if you're not one of the guys that Jason referred to earlier and aren't intimidated by successful women, women, I am still single. So here's the thing. Here's the thing, Kathy, I know a lot of successful guys who are single so I'm going to go from my Rolodex now because you know, there's a site, you know, call it quality attracts quality. Anyway, lovely to talk to you. Thanks for listening to real money stories with me, Jason Butler. If you like what you hear, please do tell your friends. And more importantly, please rate us on your preferred podcast app, because it really does help us get the message out there. So until next time, good luck with your money journey. Real Money stories is sponsored by Vanguard bringing value to 30 million investors worldwide. Visit Vanguard investor.co.uk for more details. The value of investments can go down as well as up and you may get back less than you invested
Transcribed by https://otter.ai