81. Laura Whateley Gives A Guiding Money Hand
This week I speak to Laura Whateley, consumer affairs journalist and best-selling personal finance author.
Laura explains that she fell into writing about personal finance after starting her journalist career. She went from money not being ‘her thing’ to writing a best-selling book on personal finance.
Insights you’ll learn:
No one has this all figured out
The old ‘rules’ of money have changed
Talking about money is a powerful way to build confidence
The language we use around money matters
Links to items mentioned in this episode:
FT Money Clinic podcast with Claer Barrett
Episode Transcript
Jason Butler 0:00
Hello. Coming up in this week's episode, we look at a new report that finds that four in 10. adults have never discussed their later life planning with their adult children. I talk about my new ft article all about money and the choices we make on climate change. And we've got a great interview with an entry journalist, Laura Whitely. Hello, and welcome to the real money stories podcast. I'm Jason Butler. And I invite you to join me as I have intimate money conversations with people from all walks of life. Whether you're just starting out on your money journey, or well down the train, there's bound to be something you can learn from these stories about taking more control of your money, so you worry less and enjoy life more real money stories is sponsored by Vanguard bringing value to 30 million investors worldwide. Visit Vanguard investor.co.uk for more details. And remember, the value of investments can go down as well as up and you may get back less than you invested.
Now there was an interesting report just released this week by my friends over Schroeder personal wealth. And what they did was they surveyed about 1000 people who are over the age of 60 in the UK. And I think that's a cross section of the population. And they wanted to specifically get to the root of what conversations those people were having with their adult children and grandchildren about later life planning. It's quite interesting, because by various estimates that he recommends about 5.5 trillion pound of assets going to be changing hands over the next sort of 35 years. And I found that all the group of people that they surveyed these 1000, people found that 84% were looking to pass on some or all of that wealth to the next older generation pass that. But that 78% admitted that they don't actually have an estate plan of any real significance in place. And in fact, 65% said that they rarely or never discuss inheritance with their children. And 70% of those individuals admitted that they actually have been helping their children or their grandchildren, financially at some stage during their life. So I suppose there's an issue here, there's also a concern by a lot of people that the in terms of the younger generation, they're a bit concerned about having to deal with their parents or their grandparents financial affairs as they age if they're unable to. So there's a lot of issues there in that report. And I think really what it really gets to is this issue that talking about money, getting things in the open, discussing kind of changing circumstances, people's intentions, objectives and priorities is still a real big issue. It's a big, big problem. And this report from shoulders, and there'll be a link to it in the show notes really sort of lays bare there. And it might be something you might want to have a look at. So I suppose really, the takeaway from this is having conversations about money that are healthy and productive in the family, you need to have those early on. It's not just about having a will or lasting power of attorney. It's also about talking about intentions and priorities and capabilities. So very good, very good report that worth looking at. Definitely. Okay. Now, this week, I've got two new pieces of content coming out on the FT platform, that's the Financial Times. My latest column will be out by the time you listen to this podcast. And it's all about whether you're aligning your spending and lifestyle decisions with responsible or sustainable investing. And what I really do is I shine a focus on the whole issue of materialism. And intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation, quite an important area. And in fact, it's something I cover in my new book that's coming out later in the year. So that article, do check it out on ft.com. Sometimes you can watch it read it free. Other times, it's only available to subscribers. So do check that out and see if you can get your hands on it. It might be quite thought provoking. It might get you thinking but also it's something you know, if you're thinking about having conversations in families about money might be an interesting catalyst or a primer to get the family talking, particularly if you're thinking about estate planning, making gifts, charitable donations, and also how you actually do spend your money and more importantly, how you earn it. So check that one out. Also, I appeared on the FTS money clinic podcast so search ft money clinic. And I joined Claire Brett Barrett, my good friend Claire Barrett, who's the Consumer Affairs editor who actually runs a podcast. And what we do is we look at a reader who's got a question. It's a young chap who's trying to build wealth and he's posing various questions about using debt and buying property to rent and stuff. And I don't know what kind of mood I was in on the day when I was doing it, but do check it out. You might find it quite entertaining because I don't put any money. When it comes to giving my views on what I think, how I think his strategy or his suggested ideas will pan out. So do check that out on the FTS money clinic where we're looking at. Now, before we get on to this week's guest interview, I've got a favor to ask you. If you like the show, and you enjoy the interviews that I do, and the insights that I share, it would really, really be great if you could rate the show on your chosen podcast platform. And also more importantly, leave a written review, because it really helps expand the reach of the show and helps other people find the content. So if you could do that, for me, I'd be really appreciative. Right? Well, this week's interview is with a super lovely lady. She is the author of a book called money a user's guide. She's a very experienced financial journalist and a delightful person to speak to she's got a very sunny disposition. And I've known of her for many years, but I've never actually spoken to her. So really, really interesting lady, lots of great insights are not going to enjoy this, because I certainly did enjoy the conversation. It's Laura waitley.
Hello, and thanks for joining me on another edition of real money stories. I'm your host, Jason Butler. And this week, I'm joined by a money Rockstar, best selling author of the book money a user's guide, times and Sunday Times economist, a consumer champion no less, and somebody really does make money accessible, particularly for younger people. By younger I mean, anyone younger than me. And who makes it interesting, who does it, do miss demystifies it and is really just a genuine person. And I'm talking about of course, Laura waitley. Hello, Laura.
Laura Whateley 6:45
Thank you for such a nice introduction.
Jason Butler 6:47
So all right, did it Okay, I've been practicing is that okay? Yeah.
Laura Whateley 6:51
Thank you.
Jason Butler 6:53
And I do love your book. Because you know, I'm a book junkie, I read read, read read, I've obsessed to see Frida. And what's interesting about your the money but your money your users guide, is he just chunks it all down into sort of understandable it kind of makes that big elephant that we we often make money into into kind of a series of steps and a series of components. Right. And that's what I like about your writing. So really pleased, I highly recommend that to anyone. So Laura, I'm, I'm interested to sort of get going we'll obviously talk about what you're up to in a minute. But how did you fall into writing about money? And what was your own kind of where were you coming from in terms of your own relationship with money?
Laura Whateley 7:37
I think fall into is definitely the right expression. It's funny actually, because talking to lots of other money journalists and people who work in the mining industry. Often they say the same thing that it wasn't like a childhood dream to work in money. But they they found found their way into it somehow. So I had always wanted to be a journalist or a writer of some description when I was at school. And at university, I was into the student paper and I was at university. And then I did a postgraduate journalism course when I left in London. And on that course, I did various blocks of work experience, including at the times, actually on the health and beauty section at that point, which I was much more interested in. And it was during that work experience, I made some friends and connections. And they said to me, when I graduated, oh, there's a very junior role and the money desk, you should apply for it. And I remember at the time thinking money is really not my thing. I don't know very much about money and personal finance at all. Doesn't sound like a job for me. But it's a fantastic paper and it's journalism job. I'll give it a go. And so I applied and remarkably got the job. So so like, like you said, I did sort of fall into learning about personal finance and writing about personal finance. And it was very junior, I was in my early 20s at the time. But actually I realized as as time progressed, and it was just after the financial crisis as well. So it was in the midst of a lot of money becoming more relevant, I guess, to people's lives. It was in the headlines much more. It was the money sections were less about helping people get richer and much more about helping people through the financial crisis. And so I found it really interesting. And I realized that you can actually help quite a lot of people by writing about money and personal finance. And that's always why I wanted to be a journalist. So So yeah, so it was a bit of a journey. And I worked my way up raising that money at the times and was there for many years and I'm a freelancer. Now, I still sometimes work for the time's right for other other places. And the book came along after about 10 years of writing about money as a journalist, and 10 years on from the financial crisis. So it felt like a good time to to look at the impact of that period on younger people in particular. Because I felt like people in their 20s and 30s were still feeling the effects of what had happened. But perhaps still not feeling very confident about how to solve those or how to manage some of the challenges they were facing. And like you said, in your very kind introduction to the book, I wanted to write something that I would have appreciated in my early 20s. In a way that distills this massive topic that feels incredibly overwhelming and full of jargon and sometimes bit scary, into something that I think for most people is all you need to know the very basics are accessible to everybody. And I think that's something that a lot still don't realize. So that was the kind of journey I went on in terms of working in the money world.
Jason Butler 10:42
And in terms of your own relationship with money, you said, Now, this is interesting health and beauty was your passion or interest. But you found that, you know, you took the job that was there on money, and then kind of you evolved into it. But where, what did you bring to that role initially, because you said, well, money is not my thing. So tell me how you arrived at it with that initial preconception or preconditioning. Or, if I can use it, slightly self limiting belief, as we often do when it comes to money. So just tell me a little bit about what you brought to that. And what had gone before, as you were growing up with money,
Laura Whateley 11:16
definitely, I think lots of particularly women, I would say, of my, of my generation. So I think it's changing, actually. So I'm in my mid 30s. But I see it with a lot of my friends. And I think we grew up thinking money wasn't necessarily a particularly sexy topic, the kind of nuts and bolts of personal finance, if you like, but also wasn't necessarily marketed to us. And there was that quite interesting research recently, I think it was by Starling bank, about the language and a lot of media surrounding money. And again, this is changing, which is brilliant, but that it was very much targeted differently for men and women. So for women, it was much more about scrimping and saving, so you can afford to support your family or buy some shoes. And for men, a lot of it was go out there and make money, invest, start your business invest in yourself. And so I think there was an element of conditioning around those though, that kind of language and that kind of way of thinking about money. When I was younger. Also, I've always been a words person, I did a levels in history, philosophy. And English, I liked reading and writing. And I very much separated that from numbers, and I associated money with numbers. And I thought money was about spreadsheets and percentages. And I actually did do politics, philosophy and economics at university. So I dipped my toe into numbers then. And I didn't do very well at the economics part of it. But actually, so I came into it with this idea, I suppose. And I grew up with this idea that I was not a particularly money type of person. Money was for men in suits, and people who are good at maths. And actually, once I started writing about it, and particularly over, I would say, the last few years, when I was working on the book, I started to think, like you said, this is quite self limiting. And not true, we all have money that we have to deal with. And a lot of our relationship with money is about our emotions and culture and how we were brought up in our relationships. And that's the stuff I've always been fascinated by. And so it's been for me a realization that, that you can approach money in a different way. And money doesn't always have to have to be wrapped up in this slightly stiff, unapproachable, maybe slightly complicated persona that I think I always grew up with. So So yeah, so it's been a bit of a journey from my own relationships with money as well as trying to and I think I've felt quite passionately about communicating that to other people, too. And that's what I wanted to achieve in my book and some of my writing, because I see it in a lot of friends. You know, a lot of women I know, in their 30s, he will say, Oh, I had to ask my dad, how much was in my pension or my dad's helped me with saving. And I think again, it's this whatever we we grew up with this idea that your dad looked after the money. And that it was that it wasn't necessarily something that you could own in the way that you might own other lifestyle topics.
Jason Butler 14:30
And interesting you say, you touched on the self limiting beliefs. You also touched on the potential gender stereotypes. And I do like to explore that sometimes on here because I'm a father of two daughters, 22 and 17. And as you know, man is not a plan. It's my standard sort of thing. And I think you're right there is a social conditioning. That happens is changing. But I saw a lovely cartoon by that had been posted on social media by wil Rainey. He talks a lot about teaching young people when she about money. And the cartoon was, the dad was sitting there reading a story to his little girl in bed. And she said, Dad, can you skip to the bit where she, the princess creates several sources of passive income builds financial assets and investing things that create cash flow. But it wasn't right kind of thing in my head. I showed it to my oldest daughter who works with me now. And she said that that's such a dad cartoon. I suppose you know, that's the thing. And I understand what you're saying. Now, here's the thing, whether you're whether you are a female, you know, you're coming at this from some some gender imbalances and cultural conditioning, or whether you're a guy who feels that money is not your thing, because you weren't good at maths, or you came from a poor family where scarcity was everywhere, and you were victims and the world was unfair. We have to leave that don't mean we have to leave that stuff that we pick up our what we call our money scripts. And we have to leave that here. That is part of us. But it doesn't define us. So tell me, I'm interested to know in your personal journey with money, and in your writing, because I know you did, you've had a lot of interaction with consumers and people writing in and being a champion for them, as well as the researching for your book and so on. What were the what were the top money myths that you you exposed or debunked? Firstly, to yourself? And then secondly, for the people who read your stuff?
Laura Whateley 16:24
Good question. I think number one was actually that everybody else has got it sorted. So I think perhaps, I think it's been really revealing to me in my own and I found it very helpful. Personally, I always had this idea that, you know, you'd reach this sort of point of adulthood, and your money would somehow sort itself out, you'd a, you'd get plenty from somewhere, I don't know where, but also, you'd know what to do with it, and that you'd understand what to do with it. And I think having spoken like you say to lots of readers. And and lots of you know, when I was researching the book, I did lots of research by starting to broach the subject of money with my friends and family, which actually we hadn't done very much, which says a lot, right. And I realized that most people feel a bit lost with money, actually. And a lot of the people that I spoke to, didn't have all this information or education about it in a way that they thought they had. And actually, I think sometimes it's his perception, if you see someone who's very wealthy, or they've got lots of money, that they must be doing something, right. And actually, it might just be, they've got a huge salary, or they've had a big inheritance, and that they still got debt, or that they are buying things on a credit card. And because we don't talk about it really easily and openly. And I think there's still so much judgment around the topic of money, and whether you have lots or not very much. And so people are quite protective, you actually don't also understand other people's mistakes, or where they're going wrong, or how they might seem more suited than perhaps they actually are. And I think it's really helpful to share that. Because then you realize yourself, oh, look, but there isn't a one right way of doing things, but be a kind of appointed which in your life, you suddenly understand everything there is to know about personal finance, and you are or an adult. So I think that was a big lesson for me and lots of people who when I was the consumer champion, the times for many years there times readers that engaged with the money section they're writing in and they're still making what many people might assume would be silly mistakes or not understanding how these five, often complex financial products really work, not reading the terms and conditions because no one ever does. And getting caught out. So you know, there's something reassuring about that, I think, and I want to convey that to other people as well. And the people that I write for that not everybody else has it sorted. It's a lifelong project, I think in a lifelong relationship. So yeah, I would say that something. And I think this other thing that I mentioned earlier about money being about emotions, about how we grew up about other people, about relationships, it's not necessarily about understanding percentages, or, like I say, reading terms and conditions, it's and I think, I think when we understand that, we have to analyze ourselves a little bit to understand you know, how we might want to manage our money and that money can actually be a kind of facet of healthcare in a way facet of mental wellness facet of our lifestyle that I think you can shift shift the perception about it a little bit and you know, that is that is happening. But I found that personally very helpful with that
Jason Butler 19:44
concept that we are not wired to be naturally good with money is such a fantastic insight. And I'm pleased that you shared that because we've got three parts to our brain right and we've got the lizard the primeval but the fight or flight survival for today. I want it now. There's the there's the The monkey mind that's a kind of slightly higher elevated, but the chatter that's always going on and responding to impulses and stuff and, and is the kind of present, you know, the thing that's always talking to you. And then there's that Einstein part of the prefrontal cortex, the thinking part of the bit is rational, the bit that really, that needs time to think things through. And that's the bit that that we assume money is all about that. But as you say, it's these two bits, the monkey mind and the lizard brain. They're the ones that are really in control most of the time, so it's no wonder that we don't make smart decisions with money. And then if we add in not being particularly numera, marketing messages, peer comparisons, needing feeling insecure, having mild mental health conditions, the ability to get into debt, the ability to buy very easily, but invest is very hard. It's no wonder, I mean, the point you're making is that most people probably as crap as you write, I don't mean you but I mean, royally you know, the poorer you. Most people are as bad as you think you are okay, and probably worse. And we're all figuring this out ourselves. But and I've just finished a point to make your point there is that even when you've got yourself in a reasonable thing, I've just finished a chapter in my next book. And it's all about your money story. And I had to recount in the most succinct manner, my own money story. And I found it extremely painful to write right. Now, I found it very cathartic. But why said is, so I have a tendency to have manic behavior. And I don't mean like I'm a manic depressive, or anything, what I mean is slightly manic behavior. Like it's like, hang on, you're getting over excited, over excitable, right. So my wife would say, you're getting a bit manic, right. And it's not, as I say, a clinical condition, it's more a trait. And so one of the things I explained to people in that chapter is that I even I, who's extremely self aware, extremely knowledgeable in this area, I have to be vigilant, I have to have the right environment, I have the right the right inputs, I also have to have a bit of wriggle room so that if I do do something stupid, it's not going to completely blow us up financially. And I'm 51, nearly 52 and I spent 32 years learning this, right. So if you aren't where you want to be, as Laura says, we're all figuring this out. And you're looking for progress, not perfection. So what other myths Would you say that you've, you've debunked as you've moved forward, in your work and in your own personal life? And and and all this research you've done as well as this? You know, we don't have it all figured out, and it won't sort itself out on its own?
Laura Whateley 22:25
I think one of the things about personal finance is this idea that there are right and wrong answers. And I think I always grew up with that as well, that there were right things to do. And yes, to an extent, there are things that are sensible to follow. And things that you know, if you went to see a financial advisor, you'd you'd go through, go through and talk about, make sure that you have some financial resilience and make sure that you understand how much interest rate you're paying on your debts. But I think perhaps, I always assumed personal finance and money, they were right on right and wrong answers and that, that it was presented as such a never good and bad products to buy. And, and actually, I think it's more individual. And I think actually over the pandemic, particularly, it's highlighted that that perhaps some of these old fashioned rules that we should stick by exactly how much money you should be saving exactly how much money you should be investing or house prices always rise and all these kind of ideas that perhaps I grew up with, based on how the economy was at the time have really shifted and changed. And then it's important for us to be adapt to that. And I think what what I know about young people as well, when I'd say young people, millennials, and Gen Z is that people who are kind of started earning their first money since the financial crisis and are now being hit again, actually, with the jobs crisis. Following lockdown and the pandemic, the financial landscape has changed a lot for that group of people. The housing crisis has meant the cost of housing has really become very disconnected by how much people earn. So some of these ideas and guarantees, you know, make sure you get on the housing ladder. You could flip property and make money that way, or you're guaranteed to retire at 65 and have a good pension. Some of this stuff that we grew up with is not necessarily the way that the younger generation can live or can rely on anymore. So that's something that people ask me, you know, should I definitely try and buy a house? Should I how much should I be saving? How much should I be investing? How much should be my pension? And I think that should can be a bit dangerous because it there are some things you should understand. But there are no guarantees and things change year by year, as we've really seen in the last 12 months. So that's something that I I hope the money world opens up to a little bit as well.
Jason Butler 24:52
I think you're right, there are no certainties, but then in fairness, I don't think there were any certainties that were just slightly less uncertain. And you're right. Some of the Rules of money and managing your money have changed and will continue to change. That's a very good point. And also, you have to adapt. Like, if you came out of the Second World War, you would approach your finances in a different way to if you were in the 60s, or like me growing up in the 1970s, early 80s, you know, starting a business or starting out a couple of things, I think that well might be worth just mentioning there is that a focus for younger people on maximizing your income, so investing in yourself before you worry about buying houses, or investing in ices, or any of this sort of stuff, learning to control your spending so that your lifestyle spending is not eating up your most valuable thing, which is your ability to earn an income. Alright, so not getting sucked into consumerism and materialism and, and spending. We're not saying not having fun, but just being very mindful as a spender. You decide. And that Thirdly, is that developing the right habits, an earliest possible ways that you can so that you are mindful that you minimize or avoid debt, and that you always have some money you can put your hands on and one of the things that Coronavirus has shown us is that if there's any vulnerability in your situation, right, you only need a Coronavirus or pandemic to come along to prove you that you're being suboptimal with your money. And that that creates that brings on me on to another area I'd like to explore with you is this is the shame, guilt, embarrassment and even frustration that people feel when they think either they're not where they should be financially. And by that I mean also the lifestyle and the choices they have. And that includes choosing to work on where you work, but also where they where they see themselves or what they think they should be doing, and how that's linked to their sense of self worth self image and their identity as a person. So just wondering what your thoughts are there about that whole issue of self image identity, and those emotions, those very powerful negative emotions when people don't feel that they're either where they should be? Or that they've made perhaps some some silly decisions in the past that are making them feel bad, which is why they don't want to talk to anyone about the financial situation, because it shines a light on them.
Laura Whateley 27:04
Yeah, I mean, you're totally right. I think it's harder than ever, because we see so much of each other on line now. Right? So I think,
Jason Butler 27:16
a version, a version.
Laura Whateley 27:18
Yeah, a version, not necessarily the true version. And I think social media has made this really, really challenging. And partly then the amount of temptation that's online. Yeah, if I wake up in the morning, and look at Instagram, and scroll, I think, you know, before I've even had a coffee, it's like a holiday, I want to go on some shoes, I want to buy someone's kitchen, I'm jealous of, you know, someone's new book that they've written or career that, you know, their career seems to be flying and you feel a bit, you know, tapped both tempted and bad about yourself in a very short space of time. And I think that can be quite a toxic combination. And yet, like you say, it's not always a true reflection of what's going on in people's lives. So I think there is this bit of kind of comparison itis that is taking over. And I think for a lot of younger people. And it comes back a little bit to what I was saying about this idea of the right way to manage your money, all these these ideas of how being an adult should pan out for you. I think that it's changed because of the housing crisis. So the idea that you will meet somebody, get married, buy a property, have a nice car, settle down and have a nine to five good career and then retire at 6065. That's not how success is going to look like for a lot of young people anymore. And yet, it's still imprinted, I think. And, you know, perhaps I'm, as somebody in my 30s, as a millennial, that's particularly relevant for me, and maybe my younger cousins who were late teens, early 20s. Like No way, we're not going to live like that. But I think there is still a bit of an image that this is you're succeeding if you manage to do this. And actually, for a lot of people, it's just going to be really much too difficult for them to buy a property on their own, or perhaps in their 20s and 30s. Lots of people are not going to have a settled career in the way that or settled retirement than the way that we might have imagined. I'm self employed lots of people, I like to do lots of different things. I don't know what my career path is going to look like I have to set up my own pension, I have to think about my own financial security because I don't have an employer to do that for me. And so I think it's about shifting some of the ideas of what success or what adulthood or what money competency look like, away from what we might assume like owning a property or buying a car. Having a big wedding, all of those things that are actually much more expensive now, but I don't think social media, and coupled with our reluctance to really discuss our finances helps that. And I actually what I would love is for people to be a bit more open about how they reach some of these life milestones that we have. So how did you buy a property? Was it actually because you've got got help from a parent or a partner, or a friend? How much do you really earn and actually a bit of transparency about pay can really help people progress in the workplace? And there's a bit of more discussion about that, I think. And, you know, what does your pension look like? Is it is it? Have you even thought about it, just a few discussions around this, I think will help with some of that shaming comparison that we feel. And one thing that I think is a bit alarming, and it's linked to social media, and we're seeing a lot more now is, is this kind of panic that you should be earning enough to live a life that you think other people are living online. And as a result, actually taking really big risks with money. So we're seeing lots of these influences now, selling risky, forex or crypto are like really getting involved in, in promoting quite risky financial investment products. And I've spoken to a few people in this space and, and a lot of their followers are just looking for a way to overcome what are quite big financial challenges at the moment for young people, by quickly making money getting rich quick and thinking that that's possible. So I think that's another area that we need to watch, you know, people feeling like, oh, the only way I'm going to get a house is if I, if I had give this really risky forex trading ago.
Jason Butler 31:49
Well, as interesting you say that, and that is, if you feel overwhelmed, if you feel that you are somehow constrained and that you are disempowered, if I can use that term that you can't get ahead, and it's stacked against you, and it's unfair, and it's just deep here, when you don't know where to start, then you will, you will be susceptible, like we all are, because your lizard brain and the monkey brain, you'll be susceptible to the allure of riches very quickly. Okay, and I did a I did an Instagram Live called How to Make Your first million right apart from that I've got quite far, not a whole lot. But I got a few haters through social media saying, Oh, this is terrible. I think financial advisors, you know, sort of bear in mind, I was one for 25 years. So I know about taking exams and doing regulated advice and doing things properly. And, you know, she's terrible. I said, Have you watched it? Have you watched how to make your first million because the central message in that was and I have a lot of he was being looked at by several 100 people that replay, the central message was I'm going to show you Okay, what is it you need to do to build 1 million pounds? Okay, getting rich, slowly and staying rich. Okay. And I know somebody's done it. Okay, not to brag, I'm just saying, this is how you do it. Okay. And I'll work backwards to the time, the amount and there's about 400 pounds a month, right? Okay, in a reasonable portfolio, if it was something like we've got in the past, and we know, there's no guarantees, and we assuming you never stopped paying, and it went up with inflation and a few caveats. Okay. And that's how you could do it. Now we know it's not going to be dead on a million, it's not gonna be 40 years, it's not gonna be there. But it was only a little bit more than the average car payment. Okay. And that was the point I was making is that's your fallback plan, right? That's your fallback plan. Don't worry if you don't quite get there. Or if you have gaps, or you, you can do other things, you can invest in businesses and stuff. But if that's your fallback plan, and even if it come short, a bit, you're doing well. So in other words, what's always worked is starting early, saving regularly amounts that you're never gonna miss investing in capitalism, okay, for all its faults, minimizing costs, minimizing taxes, being patient, forgetting about it, or letting it grow, letting it compounding do its thing. Now, look, I know it's not easy, but that the point there was that has always worked. This other stuff you hear you might be lucky, okay? Most of the time, you won't speculating is not the same as investing. And there's a very big difference. So the problem with investing is it is just boring to start with, because your money only goes up pretty much what you put in will always increase the value more than an investment returns in the early years. And it is really boring. I know because I've been there right? But But I now I now in a situation where stock market returns and indexing gilt returns on my portfolio is significant, right? I can see from one month to another I can see eye watering changes in my portfolio because I built wealth, right? And that's just as frightening as being at the other end of not having the money or being out so your your problems never go away. They just change. And I think the point there is that time horizon is boring. It's unglamorous no one tells you Oh, you're gonna have real fun, but there are now influences out there like money mate, making money simple which is Ryan King, mister money jar. Can humble Penny who are advocating it's sexy to save itself. Seek to invest in the standard things have always worked, it's sexy to utilize your tax allowances, it's sexy to keep your costs low, not living like a monk. But there is that you can seek those influences out there who are trying to do what I call the good strong messaging. And just to finish there, Laura, is that what you give time, money and attention to will determine what outcomes you have? And I'd love people to be reading your book, what was the thing that you learned? Also, when you were writing your book? What was the what was the thing that you really learn that you, it was a surprise to you about the whole role of money in people's lives? That you didn't know, before you started writing it?
Laura Whateley 35:40
I think, to be honest, how many people would be interested? And so when I decided to write some money back, I thought, oh, who's gonna buy money book, everybody has money. So in theory, and you know, I knew that people needed to know some of this information. But Do people really want to buy a book about how to start a pension or how to invest? And I think, actually the success of the book itself, and but particularly among really much younger people, so people in their late teens, early 20s, sharing it on social media, but not just my book, but books that have were published around the same time or have come subsequently, or like you were saying some of these really great social media accounts that are promoting good financial education, rather than slightly dodgy dodgy stuff. They're really getting a lot of traction. And actually, I think that there is an appetite to learn more that I underestimated a little bit. And I think that was said something about me, because I think my attitude has always been, oh, you know, bury my head a little bit about money. In my own life, or, you know, money is not something that you should give too much attention to. Perhaps money's, you know, perhaps it's a bit crass to care too much about money. And I think that's really changing. And that's very, very positive. So I was slightly surprised. Yeah, I think that that young people want to know about pensions that they want to know how to save. They want to know how to invest and not just because they, they need to, but because there's a growing realization, that it that it makes you feel good to be on top of your finances.
Jason Butler 37:19
Yeah, absolutely. And as I say, there's no brainer, if you haven't bought it already, money or User's Guide, make sure you buy Laura's book. And I'm not just saying because she's on the show is a very good book, and I have read six or 700 personal finance books, okay. And I don't recommend stuff lightly. So, you know, I'm a bit of a junkie in this area, perhaps offer too many. Before you go along, and thank you so much for your insights, we could talk all day. And what sort of two or three sort of insights, do you want to just leave everyone with something that particularly you said, the rules of the game have changed? And probably what is not black and white? And, you know, we're all learning this together? What sort of what are your top tips for people to take away to at least make progress if their money from where they are?
Laura Whateley 38:02
I say number one, try not. And it's so difficult, I know. But try not to compare yourself to other people. Because throughout our lives forever, someone always have more and someone always have less. And it's not helpful to look lots of Instagram and think, Oh, this is where I should be, try and get rid of some of those shirts and focus on what you really want yourself. I think, if I can do it, so can you you know, I own money as a topic that's important and relevant to you. And you can be good with money if you decide to be Yeah, I know that there's a lot of people who are really struggling and you can't climb your way out of poverty by you know, just understanding how credit cards work. But if you're in a reasonably secure position, you can feel much better about your money by engaging with it far too many of us bury our head I think. And also I'd suggest talking to other people opening up I found when I started to talk to my friends about money, you know, how much do you earn or how much do you save or how do you manage it with your partner? They're actually really into talking about it because someone else has made the first move so I think that's something else I'd like to say that I've noticed when people do start to talk about money, they really enjoy it they find it really interesting and they feel much more positive about their own position.
Jason Butler 39:26
Absolutely fantastic. Nicely wise advice. love talking to you really appreciate you being on the show. Money a user's guides, fantastic book, you know that if you're gonna watch just watch an hour less TV right and take Laura's book to bed with you. Okay, clear if your partner if you've got someone in your life, but that's the best hour before you go to sleep other than certain other things you may want to think of doing that you can do get the book and commit to reading it an hour every night and an hour less TV I promise you you will feel better about money and if you do get the book and you love it, make leave a review on Amazon and also contact me via inquiries at Jason hyphen Butler calm and let me know if that's helped you because we love giving feedback on the people we've had on the show and the effect they've had. Laura Whitely super super money Rockstar, thank you for being on the show. It's been delightful to have you.
Laura Whateley 40:18
Thanks so much. It's been great to chat.
Jason Butler 40:25
Thanks for listening to real money stories with me Jason Butler. If you like what you hear, please do tell your friends. And more importantly, please rate us on your preferred podcast app, because it really does help us get the message out there. So until next time, good luck with your money journey. Real Money stories is sponsored by Vanguard bringing value to 30 million investors worldwide. Visit Vanguard investor.co.uk For more details, the value of investments can go down as well as up and you may get back less than you invested.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai