86. Oliver Robinson Uncovers The 6 Money Types
This week I speak to Dr. Oliver Robinson, Associate Professor of Psychology in the School of Human Sciences at the University of Greenwich.
Oliver led the First Direct money personalities research, helping to discern particular types of people in terms of how they handle their money, and how they construe happiness and wellbeing in relation to their money.
I also discuss just how much do you need to fund a comfortable retirement and whether crypto investing is bad for your health.
Episode Transcript
Jason Butler 0:00
Coming up in this week's episode, just how much do you need to fund a comfortable retirement? Is crypto investing bad for your health. And our interview, Oliver Robinson, the academic who led the first direct money personalities research, which I refer to a few months ago. Hello, and welcome to the real money stories podcast. I'm Jason Butler. And I invite you to join me as I have intimate money conversations with people from all walks of life. Whether you're just starting out on your money journey, or well down the track, there's bound to be something you can learn from these stories about taking more control of your money, so you worry less and enjoy life more. Real Money stories is sponsored by Vanguard bringing value to 30 million investors worldwide. Visit Vanguard investor.co.uk for more details. And remember, the value of investments can go down as well as up and you may get back less than you invest in.
Just how much money do you need coming in each year to find a nice retirement? That's a question that very few people ever ask themselves, and even fewer get a clear answer. Which magazine has recently published the results of its study of 1000s of its retiree readers. And it found that there are three levels of retirement lifestyle spending, this essential, comfortable, and luxury. Now essentially is 13,000 pound per annum for single people and 18,000 pound for couples comfortable is 19,000 pounds for singles, and 26,000 pounds a year for couples. And luxury is 31,000 pounds a year for singles and 41,000 pounds for couples. That's taking the higher costs of a couple's retirement and including the full state pension, which calculates that the essential lifestyle would need a fund of between 29,000 to 47,000, the comfortable lifestyle would need a fund of between 154,702 165,400. And the luxury lifestyle would need a fund of between 442,000 to 757,000. Now the lower fund cost assumes that you take a regular income directly from the fund and it stays invested. And the higher cost assumes that you knew to go and buy a guaranteed annuity. So how did those numbers sound to you given your current lifestyle costs and what it might be when your mortgage free and any children have left home? And how does the required fund value look compared to what you've already saved? Well, when it comes to planning for life after work, you know making work Optional Retirement, whatever you want to call it, my view is always to disregard the state pension because you know waiting to 67 or even later if they change the state retirement age doesn't really appeal to me, I use a ratio of 30 times the annual living cost as the absolute minimum that me and my wife need to hold in long term savings investments or rental property. And we invest our long term non property portfolio 50% equities and 50% index linked gilts, and we hold at least one year's living costs in cash. Now, my wife and I, we're in our 50s. And we don't have any form of debt, not even a mobile phone contract. And we don't live a particularly lavish lifestyle, but we still managed to burn through 50,000 a year when you include you know, a few holidays and allowing for replacing cars every four or five years. And that doesn't include ongoing regular savings, human insurances or charitable giving. So on that basis, we need to hold 50,000 pounds in cash and 1.5 million pounds in our long term portfolio. Now if you want to achieve the rich suggested luxury retirement lifestyle for a couple and follow my approach, then you need to have accumulated about 1.2 3 million might sound you know a large amount of money and it is but if you want to include state pension, if you're going to see we're going to continue to work for a bit longer, then it is probably doable, what you need to really get a wriggle on and start saving and investing more money. Now. The sooner you start, the sooner you increase, the sooner you get invested, then your money can be working for you. Now crypto is often touted as an amazing opportunity to build wealth, and indeed, many people have invested in the early days and made life changing amounts of money from crypto. But as we've seen over the past month, as we did in 2011 and 2017, the value of cryptocurrencies can fall massively in a matter of days. Bitcoin, for example, was $10,000 in June last year, and got as high as $56,000 this April, and then fell to as low as $33,000. In a matter of days, it's now around about $40,000. Now, I know a number of my followers wanted to know what I think of crypto, and we're very invested in myself. So here's my thoughts. I have no idea if cryptocurrency is an amazing wealth creating tool or another Ponzi pump and dump scam that will rob a lot of people of their wealth. But what I do know is this the underlying technology blockchain looks like it will disrupt lots of businesses and how things are done, for example, how we transact shares property or other assets. And it also enables other things of value like music to be monetized in a different way. crypto relies on enough people believing in it and that someone else will buy it off you known as the greater for theory. crypto doesn't produce anything like interest or dividend or rent. And it uses a lot of energy in the digital mining of the coin. So other than a unique exchange, it looks a bit dubious, although currencies like aetherium do have other uses beyond just unit of exchange. There is also very little no regulation and no combat if someone steals your coins or there's a fraud. Although exchanges like Coinbase are regulated for their basic exchange services,
you should never really invest in something that's highly speculative unless or until you have good money foundations. And that means that you've got a fully funded emergency fund, you've got no debt, you earn more than you spend, and you're putting away at least 15% of your income for the future if you post work retirement pop, if you do want to have some cryptocurrency, I would suggest not putting more than one or 2% of your wealth into it, and ideally invest small amounts on a regular basis, you turn the massive price fluctuations to your advantage and avoid investing all your money in a big paper. Now I personally have a few 1000 pounds in Bitcoin and Ethereum. And I might invest a little bit around the edge every now and again when the price has crashed. But I'm not going to bet my future financial security on it might mean I miss out, but you know, when you've won the game, you don't have to keep playing anymore. Right now, on to this week's interview. Now, you might remember a few months ago that I told you about the money types that first directed come up with from analyzing 1000s of surveys, while the lead researcher behind that work is Dr. Oliver Robinson, who is the Associate Professor of Psychology in the School of Human Sciences at the University of Greenwich. I interviewed Dr. Robinson, about both the money types research, and also his own money story. I hope you enjoy.
Hello, thanks for joining us on the show today. Now that I first heard about you, in the first direct, sort of research report all about money types. Do you want to for anyone who hasn't heard about that you want to just give us a quick overview on on what that was all about? So that we've got some context?
Oliver Robinson 7:12
Sure thing? Yeah, absolutely. And by way of caveat, what I'll be saying over the course of this interview, is from my perspective of my views, it's not necessarily the views of first direct, but it was a real pleasure to work with them. And we work very constructively on developing this idea of financial well being types. And the premise of it is that the meaning of money, and the meaning of financial well being differs substantively across different people. And to capture that, it's, it helps to discern particular types of people in terms of how they handle their money, and how they construe happiness and well being in relationship to their money. And by devising the set of types, we found that we could get a sense of that difference. And then also devise advice specifically for these different types. And there were six that we came up with, in that research that came initially from first directs, financial well being index, and then the work that we did together. And I'll be discussing those six types over the course of the the interview. Sure. And yeah, so actually, I'll introduce those six later on.
Jason Butler 8:31
Now, what was interesting, Oliver, was that you use quite a large data set from a couple of different sources that we've done over two or three or four years, I think. And that's quite exciting because you, the larger the data set, and the more representative it is, then hopefully the the answer. So yeah, and can you just say, you know, how did you actually get involved in this research that formed the basis of the first direct money types?
Oliver Robinson 8:54
Sure. So I worked with first direct, some years previously, on a project which was related to challenges specifically that young adults face in relation to well to that to money and finances, but also to other matters. So we did a project together on something called quarter life crisis. And first direct produced a guide to how to navigate through your quarter life crisis, which included issues of money and all the other elements that can occur when people are struggling in their mid 20s, which is a common place to struggle across the lifespan Actually, it's an interesting turning point, a lot of big decisions around then. And that was a really and the guide the first direct produce has become enormously popular. It's really it's one it's still online and since still, regularly clicked on. So that was where the relationship between me and first direct started. So they knew from that point that I had an interest in money well being and in also in the human journey, as Well, you know, I'm really interested in adult development, the changes that we experienced between officially turning an adult than 18, and then passing through 20s, or 30s, and 40s, and 50s, and so on, and the really important changes that occur to us over that timeframe. So they knew it. So they knew that and that was the package that then brought me to do this wellbeing types work with them. Where Yeah, where we started to, say, discern these different kinds of people.
Jason Butler 10:29
Now, how did you come? Because there are six types, aren't they? Which we can sort of walk through and sort of give some sort of color to them? How did you derive on six types? Why not 10 types or four types? Was it just how the data rolled and how your, your your an analyzing of the personality stroke behaviors, stroke, attitudes, and beliefs? And you know, how much of it was personality, innate personality? And how much of it was cultural and learn behaviors from childhood?
Oliver Robinson 10:54
Hmm. Well, so the it's a good question. So when you have a large data set, you're trying to discern types, you're looking for patterns, but there are statistical methods that you can use for that. So that one is called factor analysis. And then also, if you have qualitative data, so things that people say you can look to discern particular patterns there where you draw them apart. Now, when you're doing that kind of work, there is you know, the number of types you end up with, is something which you initially, the researchers will initially develop a hypothesis on, and then they can test out whether that set and types works. And then they might look for, we seem to be missing something, perhaps we should add more or less. And as you say, verse directed a number of surveys, and the six came out as the best fit across the across the studies they did in terms of statistics, and in terms of their interpretation of the data.
Jason Butler 11:48
So in other words, you came out with six dominant groups that represented specific patterns of of responses, behaviors, and demographics, or whatever. And
Oliver Robinson 11:57
they do overlap to some degree. But,
Jason Butler 11:59
of course, I mean, sometimes we're moving more towards one on one away from our life when we see them in psychology research, generally. So take us through each of the steps, each of the types, rather, and let's sort of pick apart what that means in terms of behavior and possibly coping mechanisms, because that's what we're all about here helping people improve their relationship with money.
Oliver Robinson 12:18
Absolutely. So the the six types are. I mean, I think the key thing that you pointed out there is that it's definitely possible, even quite likely that someone as they move through life moves from one to the other, I think it's probable that I have looking at my journey, that the six are as follows. So the first is the juggling one. And this, the kind of individual that is within this type topology, tends to be a fan of brands prone to impulse purchases, tends to use their phone to manage their finances, online shopping, is something that tends to be popular with loans and credit cards tend to be popular too. And this Yeah, the the particular individuals that I spoke to that were categorized in this group, conveyed a sense of a sort of slightly frenetic quality to their money management. So the guidance that I give to them is to focus on money mind fulness, being a bit more slow, deliberate, considered, rather than be so led by but by by impulse, and by something which may be an immediate desire, but not necessarily something they would reflect on or something that they wanted, further down the line. So that's the juggling one, which is a little bit similar to the second type, which is the living in the moment one, but the living in the moment one is a fun first finances second person, we don't tend to see financial plans and financial decisions tend to be made in a component in a sort of deliberative way so much with this type. But this person is particularly interested in trying new things and new experiences, experiencing life in the moment, rather than potentially focusing on finances is something which is so important, as you can imagine that group is quite preponderant amongst younger adults. Because there's a certain hedonistic quality to it. But then we have to the two further types, which again, are related, but different, there's a level headed one and the balanced one. So the level headed one spends within their means saves regularly tends to avoid borrowing where possible, we're looking at a traditional, principled and cautious person who tends to be particularly focused on using their money for relationships, someone who everyone can rely on the balanced one is the person who tends to be Someone who's happiest at home, where their comfort zone is their home and they enjoy spending money on what it takes to make that home. A perfect space don't tend to be very much influenced by peer pressure and impulse expenses. And then finally, the we've got the self sufficient one and the driven one. So the self sufficient one tends to be not very materialistic, quite resourceful, loves bargains, charity shops, vintage clothes, enjoys spending money on friends and family, that kind of thing. And then finally, the driven one, which is, tends to tends to group together people for whom money is about supporting their long term plans and goals, calculated risk taking, enjoying and investing things, but ultimately, about life subsumed to a clear purpose, sometimes a career purpose, and drawing in money to support that, and tend to be quite planful. Interestingly, when I did the quiz myself, I came out as a driven one. It is interesting, I think there are elements of the other types in me, but that's how I how I came up from the quiz.
Jason Butler 16:08
Interesting.
Oliver Robinson 16:09
So the driven one is just remind me of the characteristics. So that one again, he's very focused on optimistic about the future career finances tends to be planful and have clear goals. And there's risk taking that one sees in this group, but that calculated as a means to support those goals. Yeah. So the driven and ambitious person that will often be grouped into this type, if indeed, there are there aren't other traits that lead them to the others.
Jason Butler 16:38
And you're right, it's interesting, I can see, you know, I've interviewed over 1500 people in my career, well, now their money. And that's a lot of people, right. So there's only there's only 52 years of age of look back having been in financial services since I was 20, that I realized that so many interviews are done. And what is interesting is I do I do agree with you that people do change, based on a whole series of factors. So if I look at the 21 year old me, compared to the 51, or 52 year old me, obviously, I'm older and wiser. But I do see people who don't change much from their 20s than they are in their 40s and 50s. I've seen that where they don't change manually, the circumstances may have done but they haven't really changed or still can't control the spending, or they're still spending more than they earn, or they're still spending more on holidays than they are in paying off their mortgage. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, it's just that they've never changed. Whereas I've certainly seen myself change. And I don't know if that's because that's a very strong self awareness from hearing people's stories and seeing the consequences. And having some early near brushes with financial death, as I call it in my 20s, a negative equity on a mortgage, it really did shape me up. And I'm wondering to what extent so let's, let's focus on the ones that you found more prevalent against younger people, but they weren't solely age driven? They were the first two types were they?
Oliver Robinson 18:00
Yes, juggling and living in the moment. And I would say the self sufficient one as well, where I mean, I did this a survey of my own students, as well as the the, in addition to the first direct studies done through polling organizations, and all six came out. So what's what's important to mention is that in all age groups get all types, but yes, but so they're living in the moment one in the juggling one are definitely highly represented amongst younger adults, for whom the some of the longest, particularly for amongst younger adults, where the idea of planning for decades is still a burden that's deferred to the future. And why wouldn't you defer it to future if you're good in the sense that that's quite a burden to bear. If you start having to think about how, you know my finances, when I'm 60, my retirement my pension, there's a sort of heaviness there, which perhaps young people resist for a reason because they, you know, that they feel that what gives their meaning that meaning in life is is that that the enjoyment of the present moment. Now, what I suggest in my advice for that in two different types is always to work on your weaknesses. So whether you're a self So for example, if you're a driven one, that is somebody who tends to be really focused on the future and in crafting an ideal future, a particular vision of it of the future that they have, you know, they feel they need or desire. And that can be very pro social goal it can be to try and make the world a better place it can be quite selfish can be all kinds of things, but that kind of person tends to need to focus on perhaps cultivating spontaneity and enjoying and in cultivating that side of their personality that's not so well developed to be more fun. And then with the living in the moment one and the juggling one, we tend to see a need to focus on that side of their personality. That's it. A little bit more planful considered and deliberative.
Jason Butler 20:04
It's interesting. Because if you think, what was the thing that surprised you most out of the study, and those six types that you you landed on, in the end, what was the thing that surprised you most?
Oliver Robinson 20:17
There are a couple of things. I think, firstly, there was the extent to which a person's approach to money fundamentally changes the meaning of money, and it made me realize that money, we tend to think of money as a physical thing. But it's an idea, really, you know, the fact that the coins that we hold, and and you know, the bits of paper and metal that we call money, is money. The fact that it's currency is something that we've all agreed on. And we and, and, and we trust each other, to redeem them the amount that it's worth, and so on and so forth. But the fact that it's an idea means it's frame malleable in terms of meaning. And so the the what I was interested in is simply how the idea of money was so different across different people in terms of how it supports their well being. But I tell you something else that was a real interest to me, speaking to some of the younger participants, in my study, when I was asking about these types was how social media has affected their attitude to money. So this was something that I thought was really interesting. And I'll give you a direct quote from one of my participants, which was, I stopped using Instagram for the for the last three years. Because when I was using Instagram, I got extremely addicted to high end fashion, and started spending money for the sake of identifying with that idea. The worst part is that it got to the point where I didn't pay my rent for three months, and actually went through an eviction moments in which I had to contemplate every aspect of the problem. And I decided, deleting social media will reduce the amount of exposure I get to risky spending habits. So I thought that I mean, that was fascinating for me. Because I'm 44. And I've grown up in a world, I grew up in a world without social media, I have my formative years, in a world where I didn't have there was no Instagram, there was no Facebook. So it's always fascinating for me to hear what it's like for young adults, and indeed, even younger people in children, what it's like navigating this world where you're bombarded every day with images, which potentially contain a sort of implicit message of buy this be that looked like that. But you know, we've always we've always had that we've always had advertising, but I guess it's just the sheer, the sheer prevalence, the sheer extent of it, it can be hours and hours of exposure every day.
Jason Butler 22:55
And as I say, I've been doing a lot of research on my new book that's coming out later in the year. And one of the things I focus on there, as well as you know, what's important in life and values is the role of identity and how you see yourself and what you believe yourself to be and what you believe the ideal is you the present you the past you the, as you say, the future you which people find difficult to connect with, because it's miles in the future. And we think we are just who we are now. But we don't always realize how we've got there. And our idea of identity and self is a very complex thing, isn't it? And when it comes to money, if we aren't very clear who we are and what we stand for, and what good looks like, then we are much more susceptible and more so if certain personality types, to marketing, to messaging to cultural stereotyping to the materialism, because it's easy, isn't it? So you can't see someone who's walking around debt free. But you can see someone's got that lovely pair of shoes and driving that nice car and is on that beach in Thailand. So that's always the conundrum for young Will anyone but particularly for younger people who are growing with this saturation. Oliver? Yeah. Interesting. I mean, I wonder what you what you found. That was a fantastic example of somebody came off of social media to detox as it were. But what other coping strategies? Did you find that people had self diagnosed, in other words, that they come up with themselves that they that they done to try and improve their financial well being? Because I do believe a lot of people do. If they think about it can come up with the answers, can't they?
Oliver Robinson 24:23
They can. And again, that was something that I very much found is that all the all types referred to coping strategies have worked for them, given their personality, their background, and all those complexities which were alluding to there. And again, I think the key message from the types work is that one coping strategy doesn't fit all. So we're not talking about a one size fits all do this and you've got your money circumstances down. So but yeah, so the coping strategies that would we were often referred to as particularly popular We're, well, there's no doubt that banking apps are used across the six types in different ways, and have been an enormously positive step in a variety of ways in terms of allowing people to keep in control. Some of our some of the people I spoke to suggested they obsessed a bit with these apps. And that actually that you know, they kind of that their use of them and got to a point which they felt was slightly unhealthy, there's too much checking going on. And, and that relates to the fact that everything with well being is all about balance, you never want too much or too little, you know, not too much control. Otherwise, you get obsessive and, and clingy, but not too little. Otherwise, you start to lose the, you know, the rudder on your finances. So, yeah, so there were certain elements that I think were mentioned across the types, that I remember a particular example of a level headed type. And she referred to the fact that she would use save spending and saving strategies, including a, I think it was a Was it an a monthly savings plan, which she would put together in Excel. And then I think she would print it out so she could see it, like a little contract herself. And she would also put a certain amount in savings directly after being paid to commit to that continued savings accumulation. And then, and then she would then know that she had a certain amount left over the course of that month, at the month. I mean, you know that of course, there are so many different ways of coping with financial well being and across your 1000s of interviews, you must have heard many fascinating examples.
Jason Butler 26:57
I was gonna say that there are, there are two things to take from that, which I'm really pleased because in Episode 81, with Laura Whitely, who's the best selling personal finance, journalist, and she's got a book out, called money a user's guide. And her biggest takeaway was that there is no black and white, there is no right or wrong, there is just what will work for you. And the second thing that I certainly know to be true in my experience of most of my own life, and all those interviews, is that willpower motivation is just not enough. It's it's its environment is designing things to make it easy for you to do the right thing. It's putting things out of sight, it's labeling things, it's automating things, it's taking things off you before you get them. It's, it's it's pre committing to stuff before you need to it's kind of there's no right or wrong, but it's that it's it's I don't think if you cannot commit to something, or you don't have the motivation or the willpower, you're just human right. And we're in a complicated, noisy world. And money is just one of those things that that is complicated and difficult for our primeval brains to deal with. So that's something that I certainly seen.
Oliver Robinson 27:57
Definitely. And yeah, something that I just wanted to just to mention that, yes, is something which I think is entirely integral to well being and goal setting more generally, which is something I look at, of course, you know, look at well being and in its totality, in my in my role, and the importance of not just trying to cope with things in your head is so important, using all the resources we have in our environment to externalize and to share. So I think there is this sort of conception of what it means to be a resilient person, which is to do everything yourself to not use your social networks to not draw on help, just to you know, to cope on your own is a slightly in my view, a misleading idea of resilience. well being is something that happens in when you're socially connected and connected to all your environmental supports. And all these things, as you say, which you can use to help you which are around you.
Jason Butler 28:49
And I think the issue, probably you may have noticed as well in your research is that money is still a social taboo, because to talk about either a shortcoming or weakness or you don't understand or you're not sure about is showing your weakness. People feel emotions, like guilt, shame, embarrassment, even anger sometimes about that. And actually, Laura said this as well, from her research is that you think everyone else has got this sorted and you're the only one who's perhaps not got it. 100% right, or not as where you should be, but actually, most of the people are not struggling but they're, they're grappling with it as well. And they're, they're trying to figure it out, and they're not as good as they could be, but they you know, they're making progress. So I think that talking about things is important, but I'm just interested, is a psychologist. If you think back to your own time you said you're driven Were there any kind of pivotal lessons of life that you learn as you were growing up or a young person or something or something that really kind of brought to the fore your your your relationship with money in a way that's that's that's impacted you positively or negatively now to this day.
Oliver Robinson 29:54
Yeah, that that definitely works. And I and in terms of specific experiences I can point to, but also I think for me, what's important is the value that I internalize, which is that money and concern with it, money and making sure that it's an integral part of the tapestry of your life and of a life well lived is not and should not be construed as a materialistic preoccupation with every kind of human life, that is part and parcel of, of the, of a communal society and of our socio economic world has to have money at its heart, even those which look, left field and bohemian, still have money threaded through them as part of that lifestyle. So something for me, which which was a value that internalized from from along along from childhood was, was the fact that some people may appear to be money focused, some people may appear to be less so. But trust me, if they're living in a way where their well being is supported money isn't it has been factored into that equation. So that I think is an important one. I also think that I learnt thrift from my parents. And I think that this was something that perhaps was perhaps integral to being a child of the 80s, where thrift was sort of essential to some degree because there wasn't so much stuff. But I do remember that my mother was someone who was very good at mending things, rather than buying something new, she would first try to mend and fix before she would buy something new, she would also reuse before she bought something new, even advent calendars, I remember we've been carefully folded up and brought out year on year. And actually, you know, I really feel that that internalized in me this, this this sense that, that it's important not to spend where you don't have to that money is that should should support your life, but not but not but not lead it. And actually, there's a lot to be gained and finding value in small things. Because ultimately, as I say, value is something that is sort of something that you agree to see in the world, it's not out there, you know, I mean, if you just use a sort of little example, a glass of water can have immense value to someone. And it can have very little value to another depending on their circumstances, you know, we value that we find in small things and something that we we, you know, we kind of bring to the world. And I remember, yeah, as a child, I had a set of human action figures. But we couldn't afford to buy the base, this big base, which you would put them all in. So my mother said, well, let's make one. So we made one out of wood and paper and silver spray paint. And I remember it to this day, and it wasn't just the fact of it being a thing, it was the fact that with very little money, we've made something that was that I was that was better than buying something from a toy shop, because because it was something that I you know, I felt I had sort of ownership over. And yeah, my father was someone who instilled in me the to be skeptical of loans and finance schemes and to avoid getting into debt where possible. And that was something that I definitely internalized as well. And even apart from my mortgage, I generally try and avoid finance schemes where possibly even to this day. And I mean, I actually don't even have a phone contract. Phone where I pay, you know, absolutely,
Jason Butler 33:44
that's it. Yeah, yeah, we buy secondhand or, you know, buy, you know, outright. Yeah, you're, you're on the same page of me, but I'm 52. I don't have any, any finance at all, not even a mortgage. And I do that, but I don't Yeah, well, interesting. It's not a finance game. But yeah, no, no, no, no shame in that. But I think those your early experiences can help or hinder us. And what's interesting is, you mentioned about your mom building the actual man station. And I remember my eldest daughter, and my youngest daughter, I always made things with them, even though we've you know, we were and we didn't have a huge amount of money when they were young, but, but I remember making guitars with them, and houses and stuff just making spend all Saturday morning. And they still remember, it's not even so much the making and the agency of it, it's the fact that they have shared experience with you creating something and that you are totally focused on working with them and nurturing them and learn. And that doesn't cost any money. And I think this perception that you have to spend money to show love is a particular problem with people who are time pressured, who are tired, who've got these messages going on. And that's interesting. So if you're one of those money types who hasn't prepared a preponderance Not thinking or not to rushing in, if you've got tiredness, if you've got guilt, if you've got time pressures, that all these things are messages, just just just take a step back and say, Look, hang on, are there other ways of squaring the circle? So that's interesting. There is no thyself. Oliver, I'm just interested to know what you think, what beyond all of the types, what sort of what financial wellbeing improvement approaches? Do you tend Have you tended to identify as working? For a lot of people a lot of the time, I know that everyone's different, and there's no black and white. But just wonder if there were any key themes or certain things that seem to be hitting the spot with more people than not, you know, they sort of had more votes, as it were, it is, did that come out of your research, or
Oliver Robinson 35:47
it certainly come out of my research into well being more generally, yes. And I think that what we're looking at here is again, it's about balance. And that what works is when you managed to get a conjunction of two things, which tend to pull in opposite directions, and then create a sort of middle ground. So for example, I think that men again, so this is, so in terms of goals and plans. Now, we don't get taught, taught how to set goals and plans, we don't get taught how to set financial goals and plans. When I say we don't get taught. It's not in, it's not part of our schooling. It's not part of your university education. You pick it up from people like you, Jason and along the way if people read books, but a lot, but we don't. Strangely, we don't teach our children how to set goals and then create effective plans are the most foundational skill of life or one of them anyway. So what I think is that, if you if you, I mean, much of my work is with young adults, and if you teach them how to set clear and achievable goals and effective plans, which allow them to move towards that goal, step by step, financially or otherwise, it's it's can be life changing for them. Now, part of that is the capacity to externalize that goal, so that it's not just a drama in your head, it's a contract somewhere outside of you that you can perhaps with somebody else that you've shared, when you were so let's say that you've committed to say someone, this is what I will do by this date. And it has magic effects, you know, I mean, but a goal without a plan is just a wish. So it's super important then to to make a clearly timetable plan about how you're going to get there. Otherwise, it just remains a pipe dream. And then on the other side of that, because that's all about striving and about achieving that future you want. But on the other side of that some kind of mindfulness practice, which allows people to come out of their striving, striving, future focus mode into a mode where they're just happy where they are, I think is super important as well, because that's where the fun is had, we tend to have fun when we're focused on where we are. So we you bring a lot of reward from that. But also it can lead to clarity as well. Because helping to stick because it kind of brings you to see where you are where you're at right now. And here's an analogy. Imagine if you had a map, that map is useless unless you know where you are on it. Now, if you don't have a clear conception of where you are, you know, it's very difficult to know where to go. So I think that something which allows you to be present in the moment is super important. And if that gives you the opportunity to just calmly reflect on your current situation financial and otherwise, then it can be really illuminating. Now that can be you know, through what might might consider a mindfulness practice like sort of lying down or sitting down shutting your eyes and, and you know, breathing or listening to music. But it can be through many other ways where you're just present in the moment, whether that's gardening or playing with your children or whatever it might be. But if you have too much of either of those, where you're where you're into in the future or two in the present newborn problem, life is lived in the middle is in a dynamic tension of those two things
Jason Butler 38:54
are really in concert. And that's why one of the things I recommend to people on my wellbeing webinars and I do these every week is one of the things that can help you be present is is gratitude, being grateful for what you you do have and the progress you have made and what you you know where you are in the life and meditation, the going to the breath, just focusing on the breath. Those two things can help you think and you say having a loose, I call strategy, a loose path of action, and very small steps that you're going to take to get there really small. So have them lower your expectations and take super small steps because BJ Fogg is the big exponent of tiny and tiny is the new big as he says. So all of it. That's fantastic. Look, I'm interested to know I'd like to know about people if you weren't a psychologist focusing on wellbeing and well being and money types and what have you. What What would you have been because I noticed there's a guitar on the wall would you be in a road or a budding rock star or musician?
Oliver Robinson 39:48
I did record an album once as part of a group but no actually that was always definitely a pastime. The thing I probably got closest to thinking about as an alternative profession was, was being a painter. And when I was at school, that's what I was best at was art. And, and I felt drawn towards it in some ways. So, so I then I remember when I was about 17, I met with I met I wasn't, there wasn't email, then I didn't email him. I said to written a letter to a painter and said, Do you mind if I meet with you and follow you? Because I'd really liked his work. And I did spend a day with him. And I remember at the end, he said, Oliver, don't do this. Don't be a painter, it's too hard. In every day, it's a struggle to make ends meet, you know, so for him financial well being was a daily struggle. He was an eminent watercolorist. But he found that the trade off of doing what he loved relative to the issues of kind of, you know, financial instability didn't stack up. So I so I thought to myself that day, I don't think he's right. For me, I think this is a this is something I love, but not something I want to be reliant on.
Jason Butler 40:58
So as you know that
Oliver Robinson 41:00
yeah, I mean, I really enjoy what I do now. But I still think that for me, actually, I now see that arts is a release for me not not a not a vocation. And interestingly, I've, you know, I've recently put my paintings up on my website, actually. So on www dot Oliver Robinson dot info. Under the About Me page, you'll see there's a link to my to my paintings, which I've done over the years. So I still paint
Jason Butler 41:25
great stuff. Well, as you say, That's a lovely way to sort of pull things together is that sometimes your passion isn't going to be your living is just a pastime, or a hobby. And it's quite okay to do jobs that aren't your passion, but you can be you can do them well, and you can enjoy them, they can pay you a living, and you have to get that contrast. And you're right. So, Oliver, it's been great. Thank you very much for spending that time with us. I know you're busy chap, we make sure that your website is is put up there. And if anyone wants to get the the money types report that's on first directs website, we'll also put a link on the show notes so you can get that as well. Well worth reading, do follow what Oliver is up to. He's He's very busy in this space in the wellbeing space. He's doing great work. And on behalf of the listeners, thank you very much for being on today, Oliver.
Oliver Robinson 42:13
Thanks so much for having me. And hopefully see you again.
Jason Butler 42:20
Thanks for listening to real money stories with me, Jason Butler. If you like what you hear, please do tell your friends. And more importantly, please rate us on your preferred podcast app, because it really does help us get the message out there. So until next time, good luck with your money journey. Real Money stories is sponsored by Vanguard bringing value to 30 million investors worldwide. Visit Vanguard investor.co.uk for more details. The value of investments can go down as well as up and you may get back less than you invested
Transcribed by https://otter.ai