67. Tamsin Caine Figures Out The True Purpose of Money

This week I speak to Tamsin Caine, Chartered Financial Planner at Smart Financial and Director of Financial Planning at Smart Divorce, the specialist financial advice group for people facing divorce.

Tamsin began Smart Divorce following her own experience with a marriage breakdown. She now advises people in the same situation as she once was, enabling them to take back control of their life and finances. Tamsin sees her work as all about helping their clients live their best possible life.

Tasmin is a very down-to-earth lady and easy to talk to. If I was going through a financial calamity in my life, I think she is someone who I would want on my team!

Episode Transcript

0:05
Hello, and welcome to the real money stories podcast. I'm Jason Butler. And I invite you to join me as I have intimate money conversations with people from all walks of life. Whether you're just starting out on your money journey, or well down the track, there's bound to be something you can learn from these stories about taking more control of your money, so you worry less, and enjoy life more. Real Money stories is sponsored by Vanguard, bringing value to 30 million investors worldwide. Visit Vanguard investor.co.uk for more details. And remember, the value of investments can go down as well as up and you may get back less than you invest in. Hello, Jason here. Thanks for joining me on another edition of real money stories. Now, this week's interview is with Tamsin Kane. And she's a specialist financial planner who deals with people who are divorcing or splitting up and who need help and advice to organize their finances as they're going through that and after the event. And it's a sad fact of life that relationships do break down. And what you don't really want is the financial side to become kind of like a battleground. So Tamsin shares her experiences both her personal experience of money in divorce, but also how she works with clients. That's an interesting interview. I thought this week before we get into that, I just wanted to share with you some some thoughts about avoiding money mistakes, because, you know, I'm 51, coming up to 52. And I've been around a long time, and I've made God knows how many mistakes when it comes to money, and life and, and you can't always avoid mistakes, you know, you need to learn from them. But, but I think it was, it's always a good idea. If you can learn from other people's mistakes and not make them yourself, doesn't mean you won't make them. But I thought I'd just just come up with 12 sort of typical mistakes that I've seen over the years, or that I've made myself and think there might be might be interesting just to share them with you. And by all means come up with your own and think about your own mistakes, or that those that you've seen others make. Because if you can spot these things, hopefully you can do something about them. So let's have a listen hurtle through the sort of top 12 that I've come up with so far. So the first one is thinking you're going to get better next week, next month, or next year. Now, you know, we know we have our money or exercise or anything tomorrow never comes you need to start today. Now, even if that's one small, tiny step, and I always advocate taking very small steps, just do it. If that's just having a look at your spending, or if it's just putting something on eBay. Or if it's writing to your pension company to get a valuation, whatever it is just take one step to move forward. second mistake is telling yourself that this year or the year that's just gone, was an exceptional year for spending. And that next year is going to be a lot easier. Now when I was a financial advisor, a job that I did for 25 years, every client would come in and say, Oh, this year, that's just gone was an exceptional year for this reason. Now look, I understand if you're building a house or you're moving home, there's there are times when your money, your expenses do go up. But more often than not what you think is an exceptional year is actually the normal. So just be honest with yourself. If your spending is 60,000, and not the 45,000 you think it is or it's 30,000 and not the 20 you think it is or whatever the number is, just be honest with yourself and work with that. And if that's too much, then you need to look at it. But getting honesty in your numbers is key. This is a classic one is thinking you don't need a budget or a spending plan, as I call it, because you're a high earner because you've built well for that you don't spend a lot. If you don't tell your money where you want it to go, then there's a good chance that it's going to go somewhere else. Now. You know, I have no debt, I've very low costs, but I run my spending plan. I've got lots of flexibility in it. I've got different bolt holes, I can go down but I still have a spending plan. Or you can go to a budget if you want. The fourth one is thinking that cash is a low risk long term home for your money. If inflation doesn't kill you, then you're spending probably well. There are very, very few people who've got more money than they can possibly ever need to meet their life goals. If you are thing you can keep it all in cash, but then there might be a cost to pay in the sense that you may not be give as much to charities or leave as much to heirs or even enjoy life as much as you may have done if you've got your money organized properly. And investing in obviously, you know a core holding in global equity index fund is always my preferred route there.

Now five is thinking that you or an expensive financial advisor or an investment manager can can somehow beat consistently over the medium to long term a low cost global equity index fund you know Saying it go on about it, you can't. And most important point you don't need to, because the market return, whatever the market deems to generate over the next 10 1520 3040 years, that's normally more than adequate and a very good compensation for the risks that you run. Whereas trying to beat the market and all the costs that go with it, and the drama, it's just not worth it. Next thing is, is using debt to fund anything other than up to 80% of the purchase price of your own home, the home you're going to live in. Because when you factor in the risks involved of leverage, as we call it, borrowing, and also the peace that you get from being debt free, I don't believe it's worth it, you know, the borrower is a slave to the lender, it's just not worth it. Second one is thinking that property investment is you know, buy two houses in multiple occupation holiday let's somehow thinking it's an easy or low risk way to generate wealth and provide you with an income. It's neither because it takes work. And it often involves quite a few risks, which people aren't always aware of. I know because I own real estate, and I've got different types of property. And I've done property development. And you know, I know what's involved. So I enjoy it. And I love it. And I'm not saying don't invest in it, but don't think it's somehow some get out of jail card that's going to help you with your finances. It's not it needs a lot of thought and careful consideration is a business. Number eight is having the mistake of spending money on holidays, cars, or whatever luxuries or treats when you don't have an emergency fund, where you've still got no mortgage debt, what you've got to do is get those two things sorted before you ease up and start spending money on fun. But it won't be forever, just get that done. And you will be ahead and you'll be able to breathe and you'll be able to cope with what you know, life throws at you. The ninth one is thinking and spending bit like a victim. You know, you know what it's like, I'm too old, I'm too young, I don't earn enough. I've got high expenses, I'm unlucky, I've made a bad job. You know, just stop, just stop victimizing yourself. And instead of saying I can't do saving, I can't earn enough say, you know, how can I? How can I changes the dynamic number 10 is not buying the right type of income protection or life insurance because you think it's not going to happen to you or you don't like the idea of paying out for stuff that you're not going to benefit from the chances are, you won't get ill and be unable to work for a long period of time. And the chances are you won't die before your financial dependents are independent. But if that does happen to you, the impact on you or your family could be devastating. And I've always been a big big advocate of buying the right human insurances. It's really important, you know, so that you you know, in short, what can go wrong so you can invest for what can go right. Number 11 is confusing other people's extravagant lifestyles, or their consumptive lifestyles as we call it. With how financially successful or secure they are. Chances are they probably are as poor as church mouse. Most wealthy people live modest lifestyles. And I'm not saying you have to be modest or frugal. I'm just saying most people who've got money, don't tend to flush their cash. But fair enough. If you've got it, and you and you, you're on solid ground, do whatever you want with your money, but just make sure that you are on solid ground and you're not getting sucked into other people's illusions of wealth. And the final one is making the mistake pin your happiness and your self worth and your self esteem on how much you earn or how much you've accumulated. Why don't you spend on your lifestyle compared to other people. It's a recipe for disaster. So run your own race based on what matters and what's important to you. So they're just some money mistakes. Do let me know if you've if you've got some other mistakes that you'd like to share with me. Email me at enquiries@jason-butler.com. Or contact me via Twitter or Instagram @jbthewealthman. So that's me done for this week. Let's get into the interview with Tamsin Caine.

Well, hello there Tamsin and I've got your name right this time.

9:24
Practice makes perfect.

9:28
We need to call you test me all the time. Why was I do that? I'm sorry. Anyway, I digress. Thank you very much for being on the show. You've got an interesting backstory. And I think that your perspectives and insights can really help a lot of people. So before we get into that, can you just share with us what you do for your day job as it were?

9:50
Yeah, so some of our financial planner or work some of my time for smart financial help in helping our clients who've been with us for A long long time to live the best life they possibly can. And, and a couple years ago, we set up smart divorce and with smart divorce, we help couples who are separating divorcing or dissolving a civil partnership to work out their finances so they can divorce amicably or separate amicably and move on to co parent in a positive way as they possibly can.

10:29
And you've got a very interesting personal story there, which workers are really keen to get now, but before we do that, I mean, I just interesting because you you from the Manchester area originally is where you work now. Is that right?

10:40
Yeah, no, I'm not actually. Now so born in Stoke spend. Not very long in Stoke. A little bit of time in in South Cheshire. And then, but the majority of my formative years were spent in Derbyshire. So yeah, so I suppose if I'm thinking home, yeah, home to me, as darbyshire came up, came up to Manchester to go to university. never went home and never really, it's funny, isn't it? You know, when you're the kind of young person being in the city, as has all the calls. And now I'm kind of old and wrinkly. I'm quite keen to get back to Derbyshire and get back to the hills.

11:23
But anyone who's gonna Watch the YouTube version is gonna see you're not old wrinkly, you're doing yourself a disservice is something going wrong in your lives all I would say, I've got a wrinkles, don't worry, it's during this podcast. So yeah, thanks for that. So that's interesting. So what was the upbringing? What was your sort of your attitude to money in your family as you were growing up? I mean, were there very strong opinions about things or, or because I think when you will be growing up? I mean, what what did you learn about money as you're growing up?

11:54
It's interesting, isn't it? I think, when I was when I was young, the word there was talk about money in the house. And now a lot of people say, you know, money is this sort of secret subject and a date. I never felt that it really was. We lived we lived in a town called Ripley in Derbyshire, which, you know, you think of jabesh. And you think, like, beautiful little villages, beautiful stone cottages for anyone who's ever been to Ripley. That's not what that is. And it's, it's quite a while it was voted the most British town in England a couple years ago. So it's very, it's very middle England. It's not very, it's not very fancy. And it's quite it's a normal kind of working class town is what Ripley is. And, but we lived on in this state on the outside of town. And I remember being told I was posh.

12:57
A lot.

12:59
So, I kind of grew up with this with this, I suppose with that, in my head, you know, common people we lived in, we lived in a reasonable sized house. So yeah, you know, we never seemed to be protected. We never went short of anything. But I don't think kids do do that. You know, you don't say you cut you never think you go short of anything. But I genuinely don't think we did. And, and then when I was 12, my parents split up. And I think at that point, things changed. You know, there was a bit of a, it felt like there was more of a scarcity. You know, we moved, we moved house and we moved to a village up the road, which I desperately didn't want to move to. I was 16 all my friends normal life was in Ripley, and we moved a bus ride away. And if you've ever tried it in a Boston darbishire it's there one an hour if you're lucky.

13:59
for five minutes, you're stuck here.

14:01
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know what, you could have walked it, but I don't suppose in those days, I would have walked along,

14:10
that's got a fracture in your situation, that does often happen. And we'll, we'll touch come back to that again, because because of the work you do, so so there was a there was actually quite a change in the family circumstances what what impact do you think that had on you personally, and also in terms of your attitudes and beliefs about money?

14:28
And I think that is so I got a job quite young. In a local kind of pub restaurant, and I started off as a pop washer, which I loved. I really loved working there. It was an amazing place. For anyone's from their Derbyshire area it was called the peacock Hotel in a thought and it was an old coaching in so big black might build in archway, so They drove under the building to get into the car park. I mean, just the most amazing place was run by barrel and Derek they go can still remember all these years later. And proper wood fires There was an old postbox in the wall way, you know where they used to leave the post. And there was the mocs tunnels underneath. Yeah, just an incredible building an incredible place to work real, real family atmosphere, real family pub, so work there for years worked my way up through the ranks as you do when you're 15. You know, I think I ran the bar for a little while when I was a bit older. But yeah, I think that was that was the thing. It was like, it was quite clear that there wasn't a huge amount of money around. And if we, if we wanted money, we went up and we worked for it. And we got it that way. So I think that's that's kind of been in in my head the whole time. You know, if you work hard. That's that's how you get money. That's the Yeah, that was the general gist.

16:08
Yeah, so it was nice. must really and you didn't want to put your parents either more pressure, right?

16:12
Yeah. Particularly my mom. And my parents. Were both teachers. My mom was a teacher at the time. And she went went on to lecture at universities and she writes books now. But that's a whole other whole other podcast. But yeah, I think didn't want to put her her under any more pressure. And, and I liked I liked having money that was mine that I'd worked hard for. Didn't have any time spend it because it was working all the time. But yeah,

16:42
that's the great thing is there and just if anyone's listening who has either done work in hospitality, or is hoping to as the restrictions hopefully ease up over the coming months, and next year, and it has been difficult for you, because most of us when we're young did hospitality work? But hospitality is one of those great things, isn't it because it because it it doesn't just give you an opportunity to get agency over money and earn money, but it gives you a chance to interact with people to learn how to work in a team to get your timing right you know, reliability to prove yourself to learn new skills, it's and that's why it's such a shame, isn't it such a sadness at the moment, that young people at the moment, but he won't be forever. So even if you've had a tough time out there, and you can't get these entry level jobs, which are so great to teach you about the value of work and, and working with other people. There will be light at the end of the tunnel, and I think it can't come too soon. So that's good. So you, you, you, you were there for years, you said but tell me how you sort of how you navigated moving from education to work, what did you do? Did you did you go to uni, or did you do it later in life?

17:44
Are you going to love this. So went to university, did maths statistics and operational research at university that used to be called you missed? It's now part of Manchester University. And but I'm very proud of the fact I got a you missed you missed degree and life but but it was a pretty, it wasn't a great degree, I got a third I was really disappointed with myself. And I was really hacked off that that's why it came out with but I'd worked in pubs for so long, and hospitality and I absolutely loved it. Like you said it's brilliant grounding for anything you want to go on to do. And I've been working in Manchester at various bars, and I've got a got a job beyond the bar at a bass pub in Russia and so bass at the time where the biggest port management company in the country, how the opportunities were incredible. And I learned how to how to clean the pipes and learn how to work the management systems. And I got a job as an assistant manager in the Pope's So yeah, that's that was my that was my starting point in full time work, and did that for a few years moved. The hours were pretty shocking. And then the Trafford Centre opened on Easter in the jacket potato shop at the Trafford Centre. So did look you'd love this. So the jacket shop at the trafton it's like a little booth. Like a little kiosk thing in the

19:19
coffee bar. Coffee. Yeah.

19:21
Yeah. In the food court. And to 2 million plus turnover business though.

19:28
Photos. Yeah, selling business. Wrong. This is SK two potatoes.

19:35
Potatoes, that's where it is. We used to have been carrying around the brown the Trafford Centre that we had all sorts of people David and Victoria Beckham used to come and get their jackets for cheese and beans shot. And so yeah, we're there for a bit and then then a bought house and I thought all that mortgage advisors job that looks a little bit more socially reasonable hours, maybe Do that. So went to college and got my FPC one

20:05
blank certificate for anyone who does

20:07
financial planning certificate and then that got job as mortgage advisor in an estate agent.

20:13
So what time would this be then the early noughties? Something like that?

20:16
So that was got my first job working for the state aid in the estate agents in 2000. Yeah.

20:25
So 20 years ago, just so just after the was it just around about the time of the, at the time of the you know, just trying to technology crash was about them? Wasn't it? stock market crash just to anyone who's young enough not to know, because there was a technology a big boom in technology stock in any sort of crashed after about 2000 wasn't there?

20:42
Yeah, yeah. But I wasn't aware of it, you know, because you live in your own little bubble. And, and that bubble didn't hit me. And even when I started in financial services, because I was mortgages, and there was based in an estate agent, all I knew was property. So that was, that was kind of everything at the time.

21:06
So you've gone from sort of hospitality, and food around but potatoes making obviously good money there, to their mortgage devising. So therefore, interestingly, you, you you've looked for opportunities, you've looked to improve yourself, you're happy to walk in. So the, the, what was the appeal of becoming a mortgage advisor to you, or, you know, in any kind of thinking about that role.

21:32
So, for me, it was it was using numbers again, so I love I know people think I'm crazy. But I love numbers, it's all for me, I didn't matter at university, that was my best school. For me, it's always been about numbers. I've, I just loved working with numbers, even in the pub to an extent you doing. I know, this sounds really silly thing. But the pumps are brilliant Graham, for being a financial planner. Because you're working with people and all different types of people from all different walks of life, you know, we had to fall at the last pub I worked out. So you know, you get the local beer man and, and what have you in one side, and then you'd walk around the corner, and you've got the CEO of the local massive company, you're talking to them within five minutes of each other? So you've, you have no, no thought about who you're talking to you not, you don't get overwhelmed by particular people, you don't judge people in the way that I think we're inclined to do. So. That was that was really brilliant. Granted, but even there, you know, I was mad. I was a system manager. So I was working in numbers still. And so yeah, when I saw when we got our first house and arrange this mortgage, I was like, brilliant. So I can work with numbers, and the hours are going to be a bit better than working in a shop.

22:59
I remember that time then were you single? Did you have children? Or what was the position?

23:04
I was married, not long married. And that kind of thought and yeah, you know, we need to be on a similar wavelength in terms of of working hours, because I was doing long, unsociable hours, as you do in hospitality.

23:21
So you go into the mortgage advising, and how long did it take you to sort of build a career into that and realize that you've done the right thing? or certainly you were in the right direction?

23:29
Yeah, not very long, actually. And a kind of really, I was like a duck to water fan, I sort of felt like, yeah, this is, this is the right direction for me. And I was the thing that frustrated me was, I used to get asked quite a lot about other things, like, Well, what about, you know, can you help me with my pension? Now, I was like, No, no, we just do mortgages. And I kind of knew a little bit because I've done my financial planning certificate. And I kind of thought it'll be nice to know, a little bit, you know, you can't, you can't really do the whole job, you can only just do this one little bit. And, but but I liked it, I really, really like to kind of combine and working with people in numbers that was felt like home.

24:24
And that's the really important point. I think I've heard you speak before because I know your lecture as well. But I think I read something you wrote about is that behind all the numbers, there are people in their lives or something along those lines, and it's their marriage of those two things to realize that that the money really is merely the kind of the enabler, but it's the life behind it or the life that's supporting the matter. So tell me a little bit more about how you evolved your relationship, your personal relationship with money, so you love numbers, but were you were you naturally good with money or were you a spender or were you were a miser I mean, you're somewhere in between.

25:00
So I'm, I'm, yeah, it's tricky that to answer really, I'm a frugal is what I like to say. And I don't think I'm tight. But other people would say differently. I think

25:18
every pound is a prisoner. Yeah.

25:21
I'm quite frugal. I'm not, I'm not great at spending money on me. I'm quite good at spending money on other people, I'm quite good at spending money on my kids. And it's really important to me that I give them the best life that that I possibly can so think. And I've never been a particular You know, that's not true. Actually, I used to probably when I was younger was a really good safe, I'm probably not as great as even now. But I'm learning to be a better saver. But yeah, I think you kind of learned that if that there's never gonna be a right time. I think that's what I'm learning. You know, if you kind of go Oh, well, you know, I'll start to save when I'm, when I do X, or that's never gonna happen. It's like having kids, if you wait for having kids for the right time and never having them.

26:22
I remember my wife said, you know, when you start a family, and I said, Well, I need to do this, we need to do that we need to build this user, Jason. There's never really a right time. This is the time that she was so right. And here we are 22 years later with two kids and all the costs that go with it.

26:38
Yeah.

26:39
So. So tell me how you developed in that career? I mean, did you because because you're now very, very much in the financial planning space. If I can use that the big picture you you understand people the role of money and and how to optimize it. But But how did you go from being a mortgage advisor to being a certified Chartered Financial Planner?

27:00
Yeah, so when I had my daughter who's nearly 16, in May, and countrywide got a bit a bit tricky, and nothing against them, it was just there were long hours, and it was difficult with it with it with a young baby. And I was lucky enough to be taken on by a brilliant family firm of IFA in, in the town that I live in. And they were fantastic to me, I did all my training with them and got all my exams, they were really keen on on us being chartered and has been certified, to did all my qualifications with them work there for seven years, got to a point where I needed to not be the trainee. And I think that was as much in my head as it was in there. So I just needed to find my feet and find my own. My own space really, so moved to a couple of different companies. One of them, sadly, was sold on to it was part of PLC, and it was sold on and I didn't, didn't really want to stay there. And then one day, I'd met Steve Martin, a little while before, so I've known him a while. And he was there

28:18
when you meet him, which

28:18
is, I don't know, he was the chair of our local, like life pay branch. And I really thought, like a lot of Imad, you know, I'd watched him present and heard him speak and I was like, This guy knows his onions. This is the work that I want to do. You know, I want to be, I want to be properly planning for people not selling pensions and protection policies. And he knows like, he knows what's going on. Anyway, I was really privileged that he approached me one day and said, You know, I think we should have a chat. Do you fancy coming to work for me? And I was like, Oh, my word, like my hero in the financial planning space, is wanting to talk to me about working with them. And that, yeah, I was absolutely absolutely gobsmacked. And whatever else was going on in my world at that time, there was no way I was saying no to Steve. Yeah, just upside. numerous times since I started working with Steve. It's my dream job in it. It continues to be my my dream job. So I joined Smart Financial beginning of 2015. And it's, it's, it's a, it's a joy, an absolute joy. It's been a flippin hard work to go from being a traditional IFA, and, you know, people don't necessarily know this, but my mindset was right, but the skills that you have to develop even if you believe that that's the right way to go. It's hard, you know, it's really hard work and you have to be very dedicated to it.

29:59
There's two points there that we should just just just unpack a little bit. The point there was you realize you got to the you've got to the level of where you were working. It wasn't they weren't nice people, it wasn't, it wasn't good work. But just for you to progress, you needed to change the environment. And sometimes you do have to change jobs and employers, right and situations. And that's just the nature of it. Sometimes you couldn't get the progression where you are. But sometimes you do have to change because you're always viewed by the people in that company, in that certain light. And secondly, that you connected and we're mixing with people that you admired and liked to have one of which was this, Steve Martin, who I personally knows, you know, who is a brilliant financial planner, and a brilliant individual. And you so you put yourself out there by going to professional associations and networking events and stuff, which none of us really, that's not a lot of people are really excited about networking, but sometimes you got to do it to meet people and to get to get new contacts. So you took those two things, and when the opportunity came up, you then took it. So tell me what you what you learn from going but as you beat developed your financial planning skills, what have you learned about money and people and more importantly, yourself?

31:08
So I think one of the big things that I've learned about money is that I don't want to work with people who just want to stockpile money for the sake of having money. And you got to tell me why. Few, if you want a certain return, you got to tell me why. Why? because money is just as you said, rightly before, it's an enabler, it's a tool. All it is, is it allows you to have choices. So if there's stuff you want to do with your life, if there if you want to have options, if you want to have choices you need, you know, you need money to do it. And so that, that's kind of one of the big things that I've really learned. And unless you would understand what you want your life to look like, and what things you want to do, you can't possibly understand how much money you need. And then if there are things that you want to do, you need to understand what money you need, and what steps you need to get to get there. So for me, I'm a better, better planner for myself. So I plan more forward than than I have before and I take more risks. You know, I am, I know that sometimes you got to take a risk to get what you want. And so I'll take more risks. I was always quite a cautious, cautious person, but I think, yeah, get in, get out. I'm not too crazy, but take a few more risks these days.

32:37
Now, I know that the work you focus on with helping people with divorce, separation, civil partnership, dissolutions, etc, came out of your personal experience. So do you just if you if you want to just share basically what you learn from your own situation and why why you are so, so keen and enthusiastic and passionate to help people what can be a very difficult time in their life?

32:58
Yes, baby. So two experiences rarely. Firstly, was my experience with my own parents divorce. And, and without going into too much detail they don't get on, they can't be in the same room together. And it's it's very difficult. We were dissuaded from talking about and do the parent as we were growing up enough, you know, I found that quite difficult. And later on in life, me and my husband had come to the end of the road we don't despise each other it just it's time for that to end. But we've we've really wanted to separate amicably we wanted to do the right thing for the children and his parents that had a similarly pretty horrific breakup. And, and we wanted to do the right thing for the kids. So we didn't, we didn't fight in court, we didn't have huge battles going on it this is not this was not perfect divorce, you know, I'm not going I never had to do it, I can teach you, you know, I'm we made our mistakes along that along the road as well. And, and there was no escaping that it was a huge roller coaster. And it was a hugely emotional experience that I have no desire to repeat. But now our kids are in a better place. They talk about their dad to me all the time, which is which is brilliant. Men him go to things together. So if there's parents evenings, if this shows that they're doing if they're sporting events, muscle plays rugby, you know, if he's got a big match, then we'll both be there and we'll, you know, we'll have conversation will behave like adults. And when you have children, you make a commitment to bringing those children up for the rest of your lives. And there are you know, there are situations where this isn't possible. You know, if one of the one of the couple is violent, then this isn't possible. So I am told About in an ideal world, and no, it's not always possible, but in

35:05
every case is different. Yeah, yeah,

35:06
of course. And in an ideal world, if you can come out of your relationship, and parent your kids together in a nice way so that your kids come out of it happen, and they can see that you guys are both happy at the other side of it. And they think, Well, actually, no, it's better this way, then I think you've done a good job. And I'm desperately keen to help other people to have that same experience.

35:35
And what what do you bring? What is the experience that you went through? And is different for everyone? So let's just make it clear, there's no right or wrong in any of this. But what did you learn about your divorce that you now bring into the work that you do? On the smart divorce side, where you're trying to help people untangle finances, bit like bit like the UK and the EU without our tangled finances boast? I shouldn't say that, though. Because God knows where this podcast will go out whether we're in or out, or what's happened or whatever. So, so what did you what do you what do you what did you learn from that? And what how do you approach it with people that you're working with? Because the finances can be the point of contention? Can't they long after any other issue has surfaced? Yeah,

36:15
I think, I think that I, it's difficult if only one party wants this, you know, if one person wants to do wants to sort things out amicably, and the other ones that fight, you've probably got a bit of a problem. But as long as both parties are viewing it sensibly, the way I look at it is that you need to come out with fairness. And if if both people want fairness and fairness doesn't mean a 5050 split, it doesn't mean, let's chop everything down in the middle. Because if one of them's earning 10, grand, and the others and in 100, fairness is never going to be let's split our assets in half. That's just, it's not going to be how it is. So it's about using the work that I do that I did before I started working with, with divorcing couples and showing, you know, we can build a plan for people, we can show them pictorially, a graph that says, This is what your future life might look like, not clarity, that peace of mind, if you're like this, these are the things you need to do. And if you do these, you're going to be alright for the rest of your life. Oh, wow, when you're getting divorce, that's like, it's amazing. So that's what I do is I try and help people to untangle their finances, work them out, so that they can separate them fairly. And so that both parties can move forward knowing what steps they need to take to be financially okay for the rest of their lives, and start in that new chapter positively.

37:50
But what would you say in terms in because often in, in, in many relationships, one party was less involved in the finances and the other and it isn't always the woman who's not involved because he can be around, and he's not always the earner? Because sometimes the owner might just doing the money and someone else is dealing with so but there will be a dominant person, often in many relationships, who's dealt with stuff, by default, or by design? So how do you give someone confidence who's never dealt with money, okay, to to feel that they can become more confident and capable, and deal with the emotional, you know, while they're dealing with emotional issues, or going on with a breakup of a long term relationship.

38:30
That's absolutely huge. So we work a lot with them with mediators, the thing that that's the main emotion that you feel when you when your relationship breaks down, is fear. And fear overtakes everything else. So it's fair of where you can live, it's fair, have you got enough financially, it's fair of what's gonna happen to the children? It's fair enough? Are you even going to see them as much as you want to? it? Is the whole future Is this fair around it? If you're the person who's never paid a bill never looked after the money, never arranged a mortgage, never done any of those many things that you were just referring to. And it is so often the case that, that there is one, if not always, the case, where there's one part is the dominant person. And that fears just extended even further, because you have, you don't know where to start, because that wasn't your bit of the role of the relationship. So quite often, we're working with couples and we might need to work with one on an individual basis, to bring them up to the same level as as the dominant person so that they can negotiate fairly so we might spend some time with them, just educating them about basic things around money about working on a budget, you know, budgeting how on earth or rewind a little bit, because, too when you go through divorce, you have to Budget one of the court forms is, is essentially a budget. So you've got to say what your spending is going to be, if you've never paid the gas bill, the electric bill, the water bill, how and so if you've got any idea what your budget is going to be, and so we can help people to put those budgets together to kind of understand money, to not be not be afraid of it, I think is the is the really important thing.

40:23
And I think I also would, once you said about taking small steps. In other words, you don't have to eat the elephant of the first sitting. If you've never dealt with money, and you're going through a breakup, then perhaps learning how to set a basic budget or basic spending plans, I prefer to call it, that's just the first step, it won't be perfect, you can revisit it, you will make mistakes, it won't go exactly as you think it is. But that doesn't mean you're a failure, does it? And that doesn't mean you can't get more capable. So that's interesting. So I'm just wondering, you know, now as we sort of, believe it or not be at half an hour speaking, what your key reflections about about having a great relationship with money, whether you're going through a breakup or not, would be what what what you might share with people is your kind of your top tip, so your, your wise words to leave people with?

41:11
Yeah, so I think, I think my thing would be not to be scared of it. You know, don't be don't think of money as this terrifying thing. I think a lot of people see, you know, we use loads of stupid acronyms in in our financial world, and, and we use words, you know, even the word pension, can strike fear into the hearts of even the bravest of people. Just, just don't be scared of it. But but find some find yourself some education about money, even if you do it very slowly, even if you even if you take tiny little steps. And I'm going to pick you up here, Jason, because your money moments book is incredible. I have bought it for clients, my children have copy of it. And because it's the tie, it's the small steps, and that will start you off on the right path. Just get get some get some education, there's loads of people out there really wanting to help teach people about money, because we all are getting frustrated with the fact that it's not in schools as much as it should be bit, which means there are loads of adults that who need you need educated about money.

42:28
That's a very good point. And here's the thing is, you're not silly, you're not alone. It is something you can master and you will. So if people want to find out about more about your work, Tamsin, how do they get hold of you?

42:41
So we're smart divorce on Instagram, were smart divorce FP on Twitter, way smart divorce on Facebook, we are everywhere. And we have a website, www dot smart divorce.co.uk. And we also have a podcast, the smart divorce podcast.

43:00
Oh, great. Well check that out. I mean, we'll make sure those are all of those are in the show notes. Because I think this is an area that really essentially you are breathing. As I say sense into it, you are bringing light where there is darkness and there is hope for many people. And And sadly, relationship breakups are just a fact of life. Okay, so you happen we have to sad, but we have to move on. And it just because the relationship breaks down doesn't mean that your money needs to also collapse into a heap. So Tamsin, it's been great speaking to you, thank you very much. I know you're busy person. But thanks for being on the show. And I look forward to speaking to you again very soon.

43:34
Thank you. It's been brilliant. Cheers, Jason.

43:42
What a nice down to earth lady, really easy to talk to Tamsin, I get an impression that, you know, if I was going through a financial calamity in my life, or a divorce or something, I think she's probably someone that I would want on my team. Really, really nice insights there. I love that line that she said her job is all about helping their clients live their best possible life. Great idea, isn't it? Whatever that means to you. I didn't realize how profitable potatoes were. jacket, potatoes. That's something that was a big eye opener for me. Yeah, 2 million pounds a year. That's interesting business. And it is never the right time to start. That she made that point, didn't she? And in fact, I said that didn't like the beginning of the pod. When I was talking about one of the mistakes I've made, you know, thinking you know, it's it's not the right time. She said it's, it's important to understand what you want money to do for you. That's a really important point because it means different things to different people might be buying time it might be delegating things. It might be outsourcing things. It might be having fun, it may be just not doing the same job earning less. And she talks about when people do break up, didn't you about the money that you both got to want it to be amicable and work out what your version of fare is, because that will vary from person to person. situation that doesn't mean it's 5050. It could be 3080 depends on the circumstances. And she made that great point, didn't she that, you know, money, don't be scared of it or afraid of it. It's just a tool. So really nice lady. great insights, very easy to talk to. I hope you got a lot out of that. So thank you again for joining me. I'll see you again next time. Thanks for listening to real money stories with me, Jason Butler. If you like what you hear, please do tell your friends. And more importantly, please rate us on your preferred podcast app, because it really does help us get the message out there. So until next time, good luck with your money journey. Real Money stories is sponsored by Vanguard bringing value to 30 million investors worldwide. Visit vanguardinvestor.co.uk For more details, the value of investments can go down as well as up and you may get back less than you invested.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai