59. Tara Gillespie Breaks the Money Taboo

This week, I speak to Tara Gillespie, investment consultant at Redington Ltd and co-founder of the financial community, Best Intentions.

Tara describes her early memories of “wealth”, growing in in an ex-pat community in Dubai, and her “never again” moment when she got into money trouble at university.

There are lots of great money insights in this episode, including Tara’s "just get started” approach to investing, why you should be wary of willpower, and the importance of financial boundaries and barriers.

Episode Transcript

0:05
Hello, and welcome to the Real Money Stories podcast. I'm Jason Butler. And I invite you to join me as I have intimate money conversations with people from all walks of life. Whether you're just starting out and your money journey, or well down the track, there's bound to be something you can learn from these stories about taking more control of your money, so you worry less, and enjoy life more. Real Money Stories is sponsored by Vanguard, bringing value to 30 million investors worldwide. Visit vanguardinvestor.co.uk for more details. And remember, the value of investments can go down, as well as up and you may get back less than you invested.

Hello, Jason here. And thanks for joining me on another edition of the Real Money Stories podcast. Before we get into this week's guest interview, I just thought I'd give you a quick roundup of things I've been working on and doing. So I can share with you some insights that might help you with your financial situation, or those people you know, and care about. This week's blog is all about the value of time, about the time we've had the time we've got left. And I also referenced it in relation to pay days pay days that you've had and pay days, you've got still to go. So do check that out on my website, jason-butler.com. It's this week's blog and might just get you thinking a bit differently, particularly as we approach a new year. And we close what has been a very difficult year for many people. Just think about how you value time how you use time and how you relate it to your financial situation. So check that one out. This week's Instagram Live was all about negotiating. Now I do an Instagram Live every Tuesday night at 19:30. And my Instagram page is @jbthewealthman. So you can check out the recording of that and listen to the replay. It's only half an hour. And I just go over all the basics of negotiating. And I think it's one of those areas that no one's ever talked about. We sort of particularly as Brits, we, we can be really frightened about it and concerned and even if you're not in the UK, and you're one of my overseas listeners, negotiating is really an important skill to learn and is a skill that you can learn. So check that one out and see what you think. And I've got a good book recommendation in there as well. So check that out my Instagram page.

Now on the 3rd December at 12pm. And it's free to watch, I think you can get to it via ft.com or Investors Chronicle. It's a live webinar being put on by the Financial Times ft group. And it's called the future of investing and the role of technology. And I'm MC-ing a really good panel, three very interesting people from three different companies, financial services companies, and I'll be emceeing that about a 45 minute free-flyingconversation and you can attend that free. And you can post questions live. And obviously I'll try and get to as many of them as I can and put them to the panelists and find out really how you can make technology work for you. So you have a better investment experience. And you have a better and you keep more of the outcomes that markets might deem to give us so check that one out as ft.com or investors Chronicle to see that event free on the third of December at 12pm. My self build project if you're not aware, I've been building a small as a small it's 100 square meters property in part my garden, which I've been doing since July. And that's really going well. This week, we are continuing to put the kitchen in and tile both of the bathrooms. And in fact next week, the week after next, we'll be starting to paint the inside and put all the cladding on the outside of the building. That's all coming from Canada, from Nova Scotia finally. But if you want to see all the past editions, I have it on my YouTube channel. So that's Jason Butler wellbeing. And you can get to that via my website, Jason hyphen butler.com. And you can look at all the past editions as 16 episodes so far. And I think the last one was all about the screed going down the floor. So check that one out. And I'll be doing some more stuff on the self build towards the end of the year I talked about the budget and I talked about how what I learned and things you can learn because you may actually be able to over build your own home or or you might actually be a bit more appreciative of what goes into building a quality self build or quality new home. So check that out. And this week, I have been doing a series of webinars all about avoiding the festive money blues. That's quite fun because I've got a few poll questions that I've been asking audiences This is a couple of thousand people around the UK employees. And I think Christmas and festive period after the year that we've had. Christmas can be a pressurizing time financially for many people. But as I say, after the year that we've had, it can be doubly difficult for people who've got cabin fever or financial stresses or whatever. So check that out. And in fact, you can download as I said, last week, you can download from my website, jason-butler.com, the smart Christmas gift planner, just a bit of fun, but it's a summary that helps you sort of think Who do you need to buy a gift for how much you're going to spend? Have you wrapped it where you're going to buy it from just something to help you get intentional about gifts. So check that out. So that's me, plenty going on. But this week's interview is again, another great great episode really loved interviewing this guest. And Tara Gillespie is a really interesting person, quite young, very forward thinking. And she juggles two things she juggles, being a pensions consultant by day, and she runs a really interesting sort of self help community called best intentions. And she'll be explaining a bit more about that needs to be a bit really cracking interview. And I hope you enjoy it as much as I enjoyed recording it. So let's get into this week's interview.

Hello, thanks for joining me, your host Jason Butler on another edition of real money stories. I've got the best job in the world. Because every week I get to talk to interesting people. And everyone has an interesting story about their relationship with money, where they've come from, where they're going to. And this week's guest, we're very fortunate to have a very interesting lady go I know you're gonna love hearing her story and her thoughts and her ideas. But also she's she's quite young. Right. So she's still got she's done a lot. But she's also got lots of maltego Tara Gillespie, thanks for joining me.

6:54
Hi, Jason, thank you very much for having me.

6:56
That's alright, you know, big build up there, you know, big expectations.

7:01
I better write down some interesting things!

7:03
Great. Look, I'm really excited. Thank you for agreeing to be honest, I know you're busy lady. And that's what's really great about this breaking the taboo talking about money and the role it has in people's lives. So before we get into your backstory, do you can you just tell us what it is you kind of do, you know, for your sort of, to fill your days at the moment?

7:22
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, brokenness, about money is such a big part of why I do what I do. So I'm really, really glad that this podcast is here, and that you're on that mission as well. And I sort of break my work life into two categories. My day job is I work in investment consulting for a company called reddington. Advisors, the big institutional investors, pension funds, insurance companies are achieving their long term objectives. So helping secure member benefits, helping to secure policies and like for insurance companies, and which I love and I've learned so much during doing that. And in the seven years, I think it's been since I started doing that, I've learned a huge amount about the world of finance and investing. And but on the side, my evenings and weekends, I also run a financial well being community called best intentions, which is all about getting people talking about money and prioritizing financial well being as a part of that overall, well being and so we run events and workshops and meetups and that sort of stuff, and to help people get started on their financial journey.

8:33
You know, and that's what I love about your will probably get to that in a bit. So take us back to the beginning. In the early days, we've, you know, the role of money. I mean, what was your upbringing, like, your first thoughts?

8:46
It's funny. So you said at the start, how everyone always has an interesting story. And I have sort of, a little bit nervous because I thought, I don't know if I do have an interesting story. But it's really just I've never thought about it, I've not really gone back in time and thought, what is it that really influenced how I behave with money. And so I've actually really enjoyed going through this process. And so I think it starts with, I grew up in an expat community, in the Middle East, in Dubai. And there everyone is so glamorous, and you know, they wear expensive clothes, they get this very glamorous, lavish image and people have helped in the house, whether it's some you know, house maids or drivers, they wear expensive jewelry, and it's just very kind of showy society. It's a stereotype but but largely that was my my sense of it. And I think that meant that at least growing up, I had very little sense of the value of money. What I know now, which I wish I actually knew then, is that a lot of the time, the reason people were able to be gotten worse and show me and love it was because either they had very little tractive and generous deals from the companies on x pack, and packages. So actually, they just had a huge amount of disposable income out of it, that their income or actually we're just in, in trouble and they were spending money they didn't have, and which I now realize, but I think it actually was was a real issue. And I started to learn the value of money. And once I gone to university and started living in London, and then I had quite a big shock at that point. And but before we get onto that, despite this, this sort of society that I lived in, my mom has always been a very strong saver and doesn't like spending money and is always quite careful with money. And she, she always tell me save 10% of everything. So I've always had that, in the back of my mind, I've always been thinking, I should probably save 10% of everything I am not saying I have. And I definitely hadn't until as I said, I had a pretty harsh awakening in terms of learning what money was. And I am grateful to have her influence in my life. Because as I've got older, I've definitely learned a lot more from her.

11:14
So your mum, is it fair to say gave you some degree of inoculation? some, you know, like BCG, or whatever it is, you know, the, you know, you get the injections when you're a teenager, you know, gets all the last season what have you. You know why you can't stop the fact that all this stuff is happening. But your mum was one sort of sea of normality and reasonableness and frugality and values around money that that you even if you didn't embrace it, it was kind of that little voice in the back of your mind that was hopefully just a little life raft you could get on? Is that how you see it?

11:45
Yeah, exactly. And you know, as far as the same guy same always knows best. When I was younger, I didn't, I didn't appreciate that. And I didn't see it. And I thought know how great it was, that will be people and my friend at that time, we're getting all these expensive things and could have anything that they wanted. And my mom was always saying, no, it felt like but now looking back, I'm so glad I had that influence. Because, you know, it was a tough realization for me anyway. But if I hadn't had that, it would have been so much harder in terms of what the real world really means and what the value of money actually is. And it's

12:20
tough being a teenager at the best of times, right? I mean, I've got a 16 year old and a 21 year old, right? So I know, you know, we're going through it all again. But it is difficult being a teenager and working out what and you're not necessarily thinking straight, but you are very much influenced by your environment, aren't you? So thinking about that? Did you ever I mean, you were in Dubai. So I don't suppose you're at a Saturday job cleaning cars or working me on the ball? Did you hear anything? I mean, did you do anything? What did you do for an elected your mom and dad give you an allowance? or? Yeah, they

12:48
did. They did. It was it was an allowance i don't i don't i don't have any memory really of of working for money. In my teenage years. Um, which is, which is interesting. And that's where good going to university. And point in my life really woke me up. So I received, I think it was in whatever, late, late September. And I think about 1500 pounds in my bank account from a student a student loan to go and do a term of university in London. And this came in and I thought, oh my god, that is so much money, I couldn't possibly add this much money in three months. Wow. That's, that's amazing. And so I just went, went to uni went out. And I mean, you guys out how to thousand pounds without thinking about it. And the next thing I know, I'm a sort of 100 pounds left and still still two months left of term and and then slowly getting into my overdraft. And that, for me was a really big wake up call. Because I've never been in debt. I've never really understood the concept of debt. And I was in my overdraft. And although it wasn't a chargeable overdraft, it didn't feel very comfortable. And that was a really interesting time for me because I thought I don't like being here. I don't like not having lived the life that I can't afford. So my mom being my mom, and I called her up and I said, this is the situation I'm feeling really uncomfortable. And she was like that get to the end of term. And I will once and only once pay off your overdraft for you. And in the end it was it was 300 pounds, which is a lot of money. I'm not I'm not saying it's not but for her the time it was sort of this I will help you with once because I was stressing out about them. And but never again and that was when I said right I need to get a job. Start budgeting and start really thinking about how much I can afford to spend and I became quite meticulous about it. I would say this is the number of weeks of term I have divided the amount of money that's in my bank account. by the number of weeks of time, and that is how much I have to spend this week. And if I spent more than that, each week, I would do the same exercise with one few weeks and, and I get myself to the end of term. And I don't think I went into overdraft again. And the whole way through university, and some money on the side, worked in my summers, and helped myself but rather than just relying on that,

15:22
there's a couple of things that I just want to unpack. So there was the that was your it was that your net? We all have this never again moment, right. So this is never again, for you as the overdraft and the out of control and burn through 1400 quid in four weeks and or roughly or whatever it was, and, you know, new hammer injury mom, was that your never again moment?

15:39
Yeah, absolutely. And although my parents have supported be, who had supported me through university, and I couldn't have afforded to go to university in London, and fund myself through the degree and everything. I mean, they did help me but not in that way. Not. That was my disposable income. My student loan is my disposable income. And I had to use that. And I was never again going to have to call home and with my tail between my legs and say, Can I have some money to keep paying off? Because it was just, it wasn't fair, it wasn't right. And I could control it. And I could behave differently. And then the

16:13
effect times I've just written a script this morning for a deep dive into controlling spending, right. So this is really relevant to what you're talking about. And I talked about most people, we don't use the budget word, obviously, because that's the B word we that's restrictive for most people to wear smart spending. Well, I do anyway. And although it takes some effort, and it does take some time. I'm just interested for you, you have to never get a moment. But why was it? What was the motivation for you to put the time and effort into creating some form of plan? Let's just use that as the widest term for deciding where your money was going to go? And how you're going to prioritize and and how you included funding that, you know, what, what, what did you go through? Because some of our younger listeners, I think, sometimes might struggle with this and think he's either not cool. Or it's or it's something they can't do? Or it's somehow you know, somebody's only boring people do?

17:03
Yeah, well, I think, for me, it wasn't, it wasn't that I suddenly suddenly realized I needed to do this I I think I just you know, it just happened there was no big I don't think there was a big lightbulb moment. Yes, it was never again, but I just said right, I need to I need to plan I can't get myself removed after getting I didn't want it to be a spiral effect and end up you know, if it's two 300 pounds, one term, it's it's 600 pounds, the next it's 900 bucks, and you can't get yourself out of it. So I knew very quickly that I needed to do something. But what I think the real key is to not saying the B word is is not constraining yourself, but what you can spend your money on. So whatever time period it is, for me, it was a week and I said I had 100 pounds to spend in a week, I could spend that on going to Waitrose to buy my you know myself some nice food that week I wanted to or I could live off beans and then spend it on going out or I could use it to go towards a holiday. And I wasn't constraining myself where know my future had to be 20 pounds of my you know, going out, I couldn't find more than two pints when I went out. Because that's just crazy, you have no idea what you're going to be doing or how your life is going to be led one week to the next. So giving yourself enough flexibility to say I have this much money and I can spend it however I want. But when it's done, it's done, I think is is my the way that worked for me and the way I would advise people to work because if you get too precise about it, you're just setting yourself up to

18:37
fail. You're making the point that it was a framework and context and some form of boundaries with some flexibility. So it was rather than a straight jacket that constrained you. And you have to do it this way. And there's an interesting point, I mean, that you do make mistakes with your spending, right. And sometimes you do burn through it all a bit more and you do 120 180 for the next week, you've just got to just constrain your base, those small course corrections, which I think I think you're really saying is that it was giving you some sort of sense of boundaries. Yeah,

19:07
yeah, absolutely. And, and I think that is something that I've carried on into into later life, just setting up barriers and boundaries around spending. I mean, if I'm honest, I'm a spender at heart, I love. I love spending money on people as well, but also myself and I don't, I don't like to hold back if there's something that I want to do in particular activities. That's what I like to spend my money on. So I've had to create all these weird and wonderful boundaries and barriers in my life to stop myself overspending. And

19:44
you could even spend without guilt, right? So you can spend on those nice things without feeling guilty.

19:49
Yeah, exactly. So things like that, you know, the classic, the money goes out of my account on the day I get paid rather than leaving it to the end of the month. But it's more than that. I actually send money into various different bank accounts, savings accounts and investment accounts. So that it's not very easy for me to figure out how much is actually there. So I've got, you know, a robo advice investment account, I've got a cash ISA. I've got accounts in lots of different places. Lots of different companies

20:21
Silos. Yeah.

20:24
What's one where it is? And I've got a spreadsheet that that keeps

20:28
your human squirrel right? You're squirreling away stuff? Yeah.

20:34
That's, that's one thing. And the other thing, which, I mean, I know, I know, people question credit cards, particularly for someone like me who's a spender, it can be really dangerous to get credit cards. And what I do is get my credit cards to be paid off the day that I get paid, and direct by direct debit. So that there is a risk of me forgetting to check and transfer money in and actually, you know, I put my hand up and say, last year, I got a letter through the post saying, here's a, you know, credit card charge, because you've forgotten to pay off your credit card in time and I had the money I could afford to, I use credit cards because I want to get the rewards. But in that one of the say that one error, I lost all of the benefits of the rewards that I built up not yet. So I now have it direct debit, so I can't forget, and it just goes straight out and and gets dealt with. So I don't get hit with those charges again, because that was that was a bad moment for me for someone who care about money and looks at money. And I do I really am in my own personal financial situation. And yeah, that was that was a low point.

21:40
And how much and I'm really interested, you know, I've got this new book coming out where I talk about the whole role of what does what is good, what does make you happy? What's the role of money, and also the role of your identity? How much of being a good steward of money if we can use that? and doing things that are in line with what are important to you? How much of that is ingrained in who you believe you are? Or who you stand for you as a person? If you're not, I mean?

22:07
Yeah, I think it's, I think it's really important. I mean, the thing that I've started looking at more is, is the sort of impact for money journey. And actually the impact of the money that you spend, and how aligned that is to your audience, right, the money that you spend, use, and save, and how aligned that is to your values. And I mean, myself, personally, I'm trying to align myself to be a more sustainable and positively impactful person in the world that I'm living in. And that actually manifests itself in a number of ways. People usually think that the way they spend their money is the way that where they have the biggest impact on the world. But I actually think that where you earn it also is important is the company that you're earning your money from, aligned to your your values. And you know, you can't just change jobs, because you decided the company you work for, doesn't promote diversity in the way that you want it. But it's something to think about. And, but actually, really importantly, where you save it, and and within that kind of where it's invested, I think is a really, really important thing for us to get our heads around. And some of the listeners might say, Well, I don't invest here. So that's not for me. But actually, they probably have a pension, which is probably being invested in something well, it will be if they've got one. And you know, do you know where that is? Is it aligned to your value? So, yes, where I spend my money is important. But actually, I think that thinking about where the money is going from our savings, the banks that we're saving with the investments that our pensions are going into, it's something that I wish people were a little bit more engaged with,

23:52
what a really good point where you earn it, where you invest, it is just as important as where you spend it. That's a really good point.

23:57
I've actually found it amazing how I learned things from people who, you know, aren't financial savvy on investments on in the world of finance so much, but they've found a way of dealing with something to do with money that I haven't thought of. And, you know, one of my friends has set up a Monza account specifically for shopping. And she puts 200 pounds in there a month. And once that's done, it's done. And that's her shopping account. And that's the way that she controls it. And I haven't really thought about that you've actually got separate account, which is for a specific purpose. And talking about it, every single one of us is experiencing something to do with money. And you never know someone might have gone through the same challenge that you're going through but a year earlier and found a way out of it. And I think that's why it's so important to talk about money. Everyone who's experiencing the same thing and will have dealt with stuff that you may be struggling with.

24:50
And this idea that you're not a financial person or you are a financial actually some of the worst people with their money or people in financial services. So don't think because someone's got a great education or because got high IQ or they're earning lots of money or they're in some swashbuckling career that they are any better than you, most of them actually train wrecks. I mean, there's more people, there's just as much stress amongst people earning over 100,000 pounds as their people earning less than 20. That's the salary finance research that comes out every year. It's a bimodal distribution, they are the two most stressed areas and it's because they've got a lifestyle, which is 120,000. Right? And they feel you know, they're, they're drowning in the sea of expectation.

25:29
More money doesn't make you better with it.

25:33
A lot of loans. Yeah. So you came out? Tell us how you came out uni relatively financially intact? And what was the transition from uni to to work? Like? Did you have a year off? Did you travel? Did you go straight into the workplace? And how were you thinking about money, then?

25:48
I think I was I was just desperate for money. I know that my friends went on gap years, but never really, I think I sort of joked about wanting wishing I could take a gap year, I wish I could have a gap year, but I've got to, I've got to go straight into work. But I just wanted to get started, get a job, start earning money and start building the life that I wanted to have. And but actually, the what ended up happening in terms of where I started working, is really been the biggest learning curve for me in terms of my money journey. So I started working for a company called reddington, which is an investment consulting firms. I said that start. And but interestingly, they have a we have a financial education charity that was founded by the co founder and some other colleagues that reddington. And I started volunteering for that charity, and doing some educate financial education, sessions and workshops for kids. So these are sessions that are created for eight to 18 year olds, and I was leading these sessions and teaching these kids. And I was learning through reading this content. And I remember doing the debt one. And kind of that was where I first understood the concept of good debt and bad debt. And you know, what makes good debt and what makes bad debt. And not amazing, right? I'm 21 years old, I've had a formal education plus three years of university in London, now learning education material for children, and I'm just

27:27
learning by teaching.

27:29
but the most memorable life lesson that I learned in my time at reddington, was actually and a chap who you've had on your podcast already called Bob Gardner, he was the co founder of reddington, and continues to be the co founder of reddington. And he recommended that I read the richest man in Babylon book. And it really wasn't till I read that book that I understood the concept of compounding investment returns, and how you could, as I say, in the book, make buy gold multiply. And I kind of understood that you could earn investment returns, but the whole concept of long term, and returns on returns, and so you get your money working for you. And then that money that that money earns earns more money. And that, you know, typical upward sloping exponential chart and getting that working in your favor. And suddenly, this like thing just clicked in my mind, I thought, I need to get invested. And it was only a small amount of money, but I set up an investment account and put some money in equity fund. And it started there. And actually, that for me, was, as I say, a huge lightbulb moment, kind of the same as the light bulb moment of never going into my overdraft again. And a really memorable point in time. I should mention that to rob, because I don't think I've ever told him that.

28:54
Oh, there we go. This show always uncovers lots of interesting stuff. So that's a really important one point for particularly for younger people not so younger people, your earliest contributions to any investment. And for most of us, it will be via our workplace or our self employed pension. Right. That's the case. If you look at my eight money, milestones, you'll see that milestone five is investing into your pension plan, right before you worry about other stuff. And the interesting thing is that those early contributions will make the most money. And what you have to do is it's boring to start with and you're building capital, because you're always adding more than it will ever grow by but eventually it starts to grow and sometimes fall by by more than you can contribute until you get to a point when you've got enough and that's the boring bit isn't it? It's a bit like going on a diet you you might see some weight loss immediately. And then it's sort of toning up. It's the boring bit, right because you don't see much change, but it is changing.

29:46
Yeah. Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think that's, that's something that I've I've massively benefited from and one of the key pillars of, of the community that I've started with my co founder and invest intentions is just get a little bit in early because the impact and future is just gonna be huge on on your life. And, and the amazing thing is there are tools out there now that you can get started with, you know, one pound five pounds just to start getting a feel for it. And I know a couple of people in the community who started just before the corona crisis, and it started back end of last year. And they were actually quite grateful for having experienced that, that roller coaster because it was it was quite an emotional time. And I had a few of them messaging me going, Oh my god, what's going on, I just seen the value go down quite a lot of messages, you know, hold on, hold up, this is a long term thing. We went into it for long term, don't make any rash decisions. And, and actually came out the other side of it. And one in particular, she and she came to one of our events and talked and said it was really horrible seeing that that dip, but it came back and I'm glad I've gone through it. And now she feels more and what informed to go through that and teacher and carry on investing

31:04
or volatilities the price you pay for capturing excess returns that capital markets have to give and you only have to say, Do I have faith in the future? And do I believe that capitalism for all its faults is a reasonable model for building wealth. And if you believe in that you crack on

31:18
Excellent, so long as you're invested in a well diversified mix of assets that you invest in a fund in a you know, global or, you know, broad sector type of funding, and you probably are long term. And looking at compounding compounding returns, I think, I feel like my, my lifestyle hasn't changed that much over the years. But you know, but it must have done because, you know, I'm earning more money now than I was then. And yes, I do have more savings going in. And I've become more rigorous around it as I've got older. But that lifestyle creep point has definitely kicked in way more than I thought it would over. So I'm pretty sure but the lifestyle I had five years ago, six years ago, would have that would be that was I was fine or assaulted. And I wouldn't need to have anything more or spend any more on a weekly basis. But it just sort of creeps up on you doesn't it just catches up with you over time and you don't really notice it and all of a sudden, your monthly outgoings have not doubled, but I've increased massively. And so

32:30
let's just touch on that a minute. And thank you for being open and honest about that. Because it's really important lifestyle creep, for those that aren't aware of the term is this phenomenon, which has been proven in loads of studies. And also anecdotally, I know from my own experience, and from interviewing literally 1400 people in my career. lifestyle creep is the ability for your lifestyle spending to rise in line with and sometimes quicker than your earnings. And it's built around this concept of telling yourself stories, developing habits and being influenced by both marketing and by the peers and your environment. And so therefore, we start telling ourselves stories, or we start getting into habits of having even if it's like the simplest way I can describe is when I was really skinny, I used to have a real cheap roadside cafe cup of tea. And it was at the time I think 15 p when I was really thought I was getting ahead I used to have a one pound coffee from the coffee Italian bar. This is years ago before Preston places like that. And so there are excuses you tell yourself stories are so like when you get home and you have three or four glasses of wine you've had a long week? Well, again, it's it's the same thing. It's just you're learning you're telling yourself stories. So okay, so even you who are pretty self disciplined and had that early experience, you experienced lifestyle creep. So what is it you've done over the years to try? And if not hold that back to try and limit it from sabotaging your financial well being and your wealth creation capabilities?

33:52
Yeah, well, so one of one of the things is the barriers that I was telling you about. So in a moment of rationality, I'll sit down with a spreadsheet and literally go right, this is what comes in each month, these are all of the things that go go out. And you know, everything from I usually wear contact lenses, so that's 30 pounds a month, and phone bills, you know, all of these little things that go out that you know, really do add up. And this is how much is left over. This is how much I want to save each month that goes into lots of different accounts. And that's part of it. But also, what I think is really, really, really important and I've started trying to do this is don't use willpower. Every time you need to make a change to your lifestyle, make make it a habit. And then it doesn't become hard because actually, I'm a firm believer that you only have a certain amount of willpower to expend every day. And if you use all of that on trying to you know, make yourself a cheap lunch in the morning and you got some lunch and I'm gonna go out real quick right now. Grab some Brandon, and trying to fit that in today. It's just, it's not gonna work, then you're going to feel exhausted for the next thing that you've got to do in your day and, and you'll end up stopping doing that by the end of the week, you're spending 10 pounds on lunch it at pret. And then there's outliers. And so what I would what I started doing was creating habits around these things and saying, Why Well, on a Sunday, you buy these things. Every evening for me, I would pack up a little Tupperware box and put some put some food in that and that would be what so the habit was, I'm cooking dinner Anyway, I'll cook a little bit more, I'll put it into a into a Tupperware box and take that into work. And there'll be some weeks months even where I'd be super busy at work. And I would tend to even eat my dinner in the office a little bit more than and then I would want to, and then not have the leftovers and then find myself at lunchtime going out again. And I really have to put a stop to that go right? No, let's go back, we remember, it's not healthy to be eating your dinner in the office. It's not healthy. It's not healthy, to your finances to be eating out every day, and starting out again. But I think that is the absolute. The absolute killer is that sort of lazy habit creep as well, where you just sort of go to the easiest default rather than, rather than what you know is good and healthy.

36:24
So you make the point that willpower is a fickle friend, you cannot willpower we all there's been a study that shows that defendants who are convicted get harsher sentences in the afternoon, late afternoon and late morning than they do at the beginning of the day or after lunch. It's because basically the energy levels get depleted. So we only have a certain amount, a great book for everyone to read is called tiny habits by BK BJ Fogg. He is the world's leader on how he talks about three things. Really small changes, right? Make really small changes. stack your habits. So if you do one thing, so you do another thing. So in other words, when I make lunch, as you said, you make dinner, I'm going to make my pack lunch. And third thing is celebrate, not reward, celebrate the small little steps. So well done, you might have an sandwich out of prep two times a week, and have made lunch three days a week. So it might be you know, Friday and Monday, other days. So I'm interested to know, obviously you you meet lots of people for your well being initiative, but what do you what, are the characteristics that you see of people who have high financial well being, because it's not always linked just to income is I mean, either nothing comes from it make the basics, but what is it you see in terms of key characteristics, both from your own experience, and from the people you've met? That is the hallmarks of high financial well being. characteristics,

37:49
I think it's, I think it's a good word. So I could diligence almost, and it's the same people, the same people have it in in multiple aspects of their of their lives. So I think it kind of breeds itself with the people who exercise regularly. And it actually this is the same concept of the tiny habits, and points where little things can be kind of Keystone habits in your life. So regular exercise is actually one of those things that then breeds a whole series of other good habits. And actually, it's proven that people who are exercising more frequently have more positive relationships are more successful at work, and are better at controlling their finances and so on and saying the other way around. So if you've got people controlling their finances more carefully, then those other things filter down that way as well. So the way I've seen people who are more diligent in terms of their overall lifestyle, and I think it kind of feel like they're in control of their overall lifestyle, tend to be better with money, or at least, and even if they don't think they're good with money, are more inquisitive about what they can do, and how they can do it better. It's the people who I think, feel a sense of lack lack of control, and then just go Oh, like, you know, can't do any of this. It's, it's too much, it's too hard. I can't, you know, I can't say I'm too busy. I'm too This and that. And actually, it's getting them into the sense of, it doesn't have to take of your life. It doesn't have to be a lot. You don't have to do it every day. And whether it's exercise, whether it's healthy eating, whether it's money management, and actually bringing all of those things together. In a way that means that you can carry on living the lifestyle that you're enjoying living it, maybe writing a few things and maybe understanding what it is that you really enjoy doing rather than what you're doing because all of your friends are doing it is really, really important. And that goes I think that would be the difference between the people who can come into our community who are already money savvy or interested in learning a little bit more, versus people who come into the community going. I just I don't I don't know anything help?

40:11
And what would you say? I certainly have met people over the years, as you know, I've met a lot of people. And nothing surprises me anymore. Um, but what would you say to someone who is in complete denial or believes that they're, you know, past carrying too much in the hole, or they've got a problem, or they can never change? Or whatever it is the story they've told them? What would you say? They could, because we know that the money worries and troubles and anxiety and stress is just a horrible thing for as you say, relationships, your physical health, your mental health, your everything. What would you say to that person? How could they get out of that fog? Or that that, that that belief that that negative belief? What what are the things or strategies you see work that helped people kickstart than you then financially?

40:57
My, my favorite way of going about that, and, and it doesn't always work, but is the five why's? So if you've seen that, that action, but there? Why Why do you feel that way? Oh, well, because it's just not for me. But why? Oh, because I've never done it before? Well, why? I guess I don't really know how or why. And then eventually, you get down to a reason that they can understand and I can understand is something that isn't actually that big a thing to change. But if you just start from, well, I don't have a budget or you know, don't money plan, because I just does not meet, then that's such a hard behavior or mindset to shift from whereas if you can get them to somewhere, where it's actually a really small change from where they are now. And just keep asking them those questions, that the why questions can can sometimes be quite eye opening. As I say, it doesn't always work. But But I think if someone is open to going down that journey with you, then it can really help. I think we should add something to your LinkedIn profile.

42:08
They expect me to ask a lot of wise. So my mom called me the y cube when I was young, because I was always asking questions. And as you say, being curious. Doesn't have to be the way it was. You know, that there are people who've built millions of pounds. I know a bloke worth I'm not kidding, he's worth 100 and 20 million pounds, and he has difficulty spelling, anything. Okay? So anyone who's and I'm not saying that that's the epitome of success to have all that money. I'm just saying that if this was an intelligence thing, or this was a breeding thing, if this was a situation thing, that everyone would be the same, right? And it's all down to intentionality. And I agree with you. So what some Do you want to just sort of share with me now what the sort of key themes and trends and ideas and situations that you and your movement, your financial well being movement are sort of championing or you're trying to get behind? Or what you're, you want the world to know about?

43:01
Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, as I said, that really core belief for us is that talking about money is the key to understanding it. And understanding it is the key to building your long term wealth. I don't mean, wealth is earning more money, as we've said already, it's about wealth to you, it's about being able to afford the lifestyle that you want to live, it's about feeling confident, and in control, and, and sharing and inspiring each other and the things that we've learned. So you know, our meetups at the moment when we have them, it's not about me sitting there going, right here is some knowledge that I can impart on you. It's in fact, quite the opposite, that they're engaging conversations, we bring people from the community who, this time last year didn't really know anything or didn't feel like they do anything about money. And they share their experiences, I suppose, sort of like I'm doing here today. And we'll have a theme around a particular topic, whether it's pensions or investing or money and sustainability, or money in mental health, those types of topics. And just bringing it out in a way that really makes sense to people and things that they can action in a really tangible way. We don't want it to dominate your life. We don't want everyone to sit there every day worrying, you know, on their their bank accounts trying to figure out everything they're spending and creating meticulous budgets. It's about integrating good habits and good choices in your day to day life that will ultimately set you up well for the future. I fundamentally believe that well being is made up of three things physical, mental, and financial, physical and mental. Physical has been in the limelight for quite a while really amazing the mental health and mental well being is becoming more talked about and less of a taboo. Amazing. We need financial to be the same and and that's what best intentions as a community. To set up to do, as I said, we have monthly meetups got blog. And we're creating a members hub, which is going to be to headspace for, for the world of finance. So you can go in and understand some simple concepts and some simple ideas. Or you can do longer courses, and really get to grips with with stuff in a way that works for your day to day life and your lifestyle.

45:26
And I think what's so good about the best intentions, and we'll put the what's the website address if people want to check out?

45:32
intention.life?

45:33
Great. So we'll put that in the show notes as well. But what's really good about that is I think it's it's an the missing link. It's that safe space, that sense of community without people feeling that being sold to have people sharing what's working for them, real people, you always relate to people who, you know, people can't believe it when I say, you know, as a 30,000 pound debt in my 20s, you know, and I'm not Now perhaps they can't relate to me. So I'm 51. And, you know, I don't have those problems now. But I did, and I never forget them, but they might relate to someone who's more their own age or who's only recently come out of a situation. And that's what your your organization's about. And I think you're absolutely right, the diversity issue, the gender issue, the sustainability issue, the intergenerational fairness issue that everything's covered, I think, and I think you're doing some great work there. So if we can raise the raise the awareness, the intentionality, and, and to share best practice, I think it's good there. So I'm very, very keen to support what you're doing. I think it's a fantastic initiative. And we'll certainly make sure that as many people as possible, get to know that now, before you go, because I know you've got to get off. You're a busy lady, but I want you just to share, I don't know, whatever you want to leave everyone with that could just they could go and implement tomorrow that might make their financial well, being better your pearls of wisdom. This is your big, your big swan song, Tara.

46:56
And, well, I think that if you could take one thing that you know about money, and share it with two people, and ask those two people what their top tip or what their top learning is about money. And you take that, I think, honestly, and get them sharing them to share. I think I wrote down the math on this, that if you did that for a week, that would be 127 conversations about money, which would really move the dial. So those two people spoke to two peoples, those two people did that for a week. And I think in terms of the impact on the overall world and the world's financial well being that would that would be a big, a big lever in your personal financial well being. Get started with investing, and do it in a small way, do it in a way that's affordable for you. But just get started, get started early. Because you know, in 10 20 years time, you will, you will have made probably, you know, maybe a week's worth of salary without doing anything. Maybe more and, and you Yeah, you won't regret it. So have the conversations share and learn from each other. But on an individual level, don't dismiss investing, get started and get started. As soon as possible.

48:25
Great stuff. Tara Gillespie superstar in the making, I can see a one to watch. I know. Very, very excited to speak to you. We've only touched this surface, we'll have you on again on the show. And you know, I think what you're doing is great. So it's best intentions is the organization, we'll put it in the show notes. Get involved in the community, read the blogs. And just and just realize you're not alone, right? You can be good with money. Money is a liberator doesn't define you. And there's lots of people out. There's lots of resources that can help you, Tara, thank you very much for your insights.

49:01
Thanks so much, Jason. It's great to be on.

49:08
Wasn't Tara, great, some really great insights there and amazing from someone relatively young. So here's my three sort of big takeaways that I got from that interview. The idea that you make mistakes, but you learn from them. Tara talked about her misstep, or rather disaster money disaster at university when she pretty much ran out of money. And she had to go to a mum to help her out. And that was her never again moment. So the issue there is not that you get in a mess, but that you get out of it and you learn from it. She also talked about having barriers and boundaries. I thought rather honestly and vulnerably she said, I'm a spender at heart. So and the other thing was she made the point about avoiding willpower willpower is a fickle friend, and she made it easy for herself to do the right thing by automating all of her payments and having things so that on payday, everything went to the right place. And she made the point that getting started on anything but particularly in relation to investing, which is one of her sort of areas that she really likes to promote is, is just get started and start really small. And that's what I've been talking about for years, this idea that just take the first next step, and move from there, and you can get better later. So great episode. Fantastic insights, really enjoyed it and hope you got something out of that as well. Thanks for listening to real money stories with me, Jason Butler. If you like what you hear, please do tell your friends. And more importantly, please rate us on your preferred podcast app, because it really does help us get the message out there. So until next time, good luck with your money journey. Real Money stories is sponsored by Vanguard bringing value to 30 million investors worldwide. Visit Vanguard investor.co.uk for more details. The value of investments can go down as well as up and you may get back less than you invested.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai